www.mattkprovideo.com/2026/09/19/jerry-dealey-on-the-dealey-plaza-and-the-schoolbook-depository/

In episode 45 of “On the Trail of Delusion” an indirect descendant of George Bannerman Dealey, for whom Dealey Plaza is named, discusses his life and his book “JFK Assassination: Shades From The Fence.”

The host & Jerry Dealey examine the numerous widespread JFK conspiracies that might be true, and the reasons they might be false.

This is part one, and part two is way down at the bottom of this page.

TRANSCRIPT of part one ( Part two is further down the page)

Welcome to another edition of On the Trail of Delusion,
where I try to separate the wheat from the chaff and give you something substantial on the JFK assassination rather than some of the usual nonsense you see on YouTube and all over the internet.
So today my special guest is Jerry Dealey important book that people should get. It’s right here.
I strongly recommend this book. it’s it’s terrific.
And he’s also written an excellent book about the origins of Dealy Plaza
And he also is the best tour guide uh in Dallas uh bar none. So Jerry, welcome to On the Trail of Delusion.
Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here.
So, um, let’s start off. I mean, perhaps you can give us a bit of, you know, the background of your family and yourself and, uh, and the plaza.
Okay. Well, I like to tell researchers and I also mention in my book. Dealey was a name I was told by my first handlers to use all the time. And of course, my first handlers, I didn’t know their real name. I called them mom and dad.
But that was probably just an acronym, you know, kind of meaning something else.
But I am born into the Dealey family. I am a descendant of indirect descendant of GB De Plaza is named after. He was my great grandfather or grand uncle, excuse me.
So his little brother Charlie who was a poor pastor pretty much is my greatgrandfather.
And I think as a poor pastor, he took an oath of poverty and it stuck to my side of the family ever since. So if you’re going to kidnap my kids or grandkids, just remember they’re high maintenance and you’re on your own once you take them, right? But um so I got involved with the assassination because of my name. I mean um I in in the fall of I was born in Dallas. I lived in Dallas all first eight years of my life. And once I turned eight in ‘ 63, um in the fall of 63 or actually in July, I moved to Denver and my mother registered me in school under my step name, my stepfather’s name, right? She just did all the kids, my me, my brother, and all the stepids that way. So, I was in Denver at the time of the assassination in third grade, even though my father always lived here. And so, I was under the Sume name, but that’s my alibi, and I’m going to stick with it. Okay. One more big question. What is what is the proper pronunciation of of the plaza of of your name? D Plaza. So it’sorton. So it’s not it’s delay, not daily, right? It’s D. It’s definitely D. Two two E’s two le e on both sides when you pronounce it. Okay. Well, that’s good to know because I think a lot of people mispronounce it. I probably mispronounced it many times in my life. So it’s good to uh to get that cleared up. Okay. So, um, you want to talk about, uh, conspiracy or possibilities of a conspiracy in the in the JFK assassination? Yeah. I mean, I’ve been involved with this again because of my name almost from the beginning early on, you know, in the 60s and 70s. I got a hold of every book I could possibly get. Of course, it was before the internet, so everything was on books in those days. And they were harder to come by up in Denver, but I came back every summer, and I would always go down to De Plaza when I could. you know, eight years old, I wasn’t driving myself very often. So, I always went down to De Plaza. I was familiar with it. And George Bannerman Dele, the plaza is named after him. He was the publisher and the owner of the Dallas Morning News until he died in 1946. And so, the plaza is named after him because he was a very proponent in creating um city planning. He hired the city planner that pretty much planned the whole thing. and my other book be in the heart of Texas. You can get the whole history of the dele’s the Dallas families and a little bit of dou about Dallas and of course the Texas school book depository and all the buildings there. I got involved with computers in back in 1979. I had a TRS80 model one play chess on it. Yeah, trash 80. And I used to play chess on it and then I had it was cassette based and I had learned basic. So in 1980, my wife had a fairly decent job. So I went back to college and got a college degree in computer programming and I’ve been involved with computers all ever since. So it’s like 50 some odd or 40 some odd years in computers alone. I got involved with the JFK assassination when I moved back to Dallas permanently in ‘ 84. Um, again it was just kind of keeping track on it and then as the internet grew I mean first I think in ‘ 86 I had my first bulletin board system and I had a JFK room in that. It was running off floppy on a model 3 TRS80 trash 80 and I had JFKs known for that. But we did dialup modems we would go to news groups. We would go to Starex, any place that you could possibly find information on Hill news groups, alt JFK assassination dot, whatever, and you get as much information you could, not really reliable information, but then eventually AOL came on, still dial up, and then eventually the internet came up where you got routers instead of modems. And I think I did my first tour in ’93. There was NAS conference here in Bele Plaza and I used to go down the plaza on the anniversary. I remember in the 64 museum there was a big sign that showed the huge crowd for the 30th anniversary in 1993 and I used to play where’s Waldo on that because you can find me if you know where to look. So I was involved with that and then at somewhere between that and 96 when the JFK conference started I found dealer plaza UK and Ian Griggs. So, up to that point, I used to do tours and stuff for friends and families and co-workers. But then in 96, I started doing tours for Daily Plaza UK people. um over in for the your listeners or readers that aren’t not familiar that used to be a group about the JFK assassination that met over in London area and it would come over they would come over cage on the conference and so I would do tours for them whenever they came over and then eventually Ken Holmes who I also met in 96 he was a paid tour guide so I started doing paid tours in the late 90s and I’ve been doing tours I’ve given thousands of tours to thousands of people. Your tours are amazing. Absolutely, absolutely terrific tours. I mean, really, really good. So, one of the things, and we may cover it in a future session, but one of the things I always cover in the tours is the nature of conspiracies and the nature of lone nuts. We may in a future session cover the Texas School Book Depository. We plan on doing that. And that’s why I specialize more than anything else. I wrote my first book in the early 2000s and it was basically a history of Dallas um and De Plaza, the Delely family and um Texas School Book Depository. And so I could bore you forever with all that, but I’m not going to get into that right now. Yeah, we’re going to I want to start by kind of talking about just conspiracy. The biggest objection I have is people are not have a tendency not to think for themselves. Instead, they read something, they start believing that, and then they become a member of that tribe. Um, we’ll talk about the lone nut tribe. Let’s do that first. Um, lone nut is kind of misused a lot. A lot of people seem to think the nut part applies to whoever believes that Oswald acted alone. And that’s not where it originally came from. It originally came from Oswald himself being a nut. And the advantage of a nut is you don’t have to come up with a motive. You can just say, “Well, he’s crazy.” And that’s it. So, you don’t have to worry about a motive or anything like that. And so, that’s where the lone nut came from. A lot of people prefer lone gunman because that seems like you just believe Oswald acted completely alone. But that can and cannot mean a conspiracy. We’ll get into that a little bit a little bit down the road. For instance, if you’re just looking at the hard evidence, it only points to Oswald. Well, the same is true with John Wils Booth. If you’re looking at the hard evidence, the gun, the involvement, the theater, the rest of it, it only points to John Wils Booth. But he was the lone gunman in the Lincoln part of the killing. But he had co-conspirators including you know Spangler who attacked I think Spangler I’m missing the name right now. One of them who attacked the secretary of state Seward and one of them that supposed to have attacked the vice president at the same time and he chickened out and just spend his time in a bar drinking and getting drunk. But even though Booth was the only killer of Lincoln Y there was other people in the conspiracy and some of them were hanged for it. Yeah, that’s true. Including the first female hanging in the United States. Of course, it was a military tribunal and not civil law at that point because we were still at war. So just because Oswald acted alone, that does not necessarily rule out conspiracy from some point of view. A lot of people unfortunately are tribal. Human beings like to belong to a tribe and so they like to join one tribe or the other. So if they’re a conspiracy, then they point at everyone who’s a lone nut and make fun of them and ridicule them. as you kind of said in your introduction, and we’ll get into that a little bit. And if they’re a lone nut believer, then they have a tendency to push at the conspiracy and push at the extreme weird stuff of the extreme end of conspiracy. And I believe there are a lot of different conspiracy levels between the black which is they set Oswald up as a pacy. wasn’t involved and LBJ or one of his buddies or whatever killed and shot the government shot killed Kennedy and used Oswald’s psy and pure white which is what the Warren Commission came up with which basically said Oswald acted completely alone planned it without influence or intervention or even letting anyone else know what he was doing and those are the two extremes. there are many levels of conspiracy in between those two. So that’s kind of what I want to talk a little bit on today.

So we kind of I want to make it kind of an exchange, Fred. Um let’s talk about first what kind of groups disliked Kennedy and could have a conspiracy. Okay, so let’s just kind of chat on that a little bit. I’ve got a list here in front of me that we’re going to kind of cover.

I want to make sure to cover all these groups because these are the people that hated Kennedy enough to have a possible conspiracy. And so we just want to talk about all the groups that hated Kennedy. First of all, the CIA or CIA operatives. That’s not the whole agency that well the whole agency disliked Kennedy because he was kind of threatening to dismantle them. But the CIA operatives or people just didn’t like Kennedy and they hated Castro and they just wanted and might hate Kennedy for being too soft on it. And so that’s one group that’s in there. Okay. Another group that hated Kennedy was in Vietnam. Madam DM Kennedy was kind of allowed the CIA to kill both her brothers. We were getting involved in Vietnam and there had been assassination backed by the CIA. And so Madame DM kind of disliked Kennedy to a large degree. Okay. Another group we want to talk about is the mafia. U mafia hated Robert Kennedy with a passion and they would do almost anything get Robert Kennedy off off of their back. Um they also did not like Kennedy’s um support of or not doing anything about Castro kicking them out of the country. that was a cash cow for them from you know casinos and other things going on down there. So they hated the Kennedy brothers for that and some of the major mafia people like Carlos Marcelo who basically said take this stone from my shoe or you you don’t kill talking about Bobby you don’t cut off the tail of the dog you kill the head so the tail dies with it and that was talking about Bobby Candy versus JFK. Yeah. And then Trafocanti said he’s going to be hit. Um Gian Kana, of course, Gian Connor was sharing a mistress with Kennedy, Judith Exner. And he also kind of said, um he Gian Conor’s death itself, he was killed by being shot ritually around the mouth as in do not talk right before he was supposed to talk. The house select me on assassinations. John Rosselli, another mafia figure, which who was supposedly chopped up and put in a barrel floating in the Bay of Biscane, I think it was, off of Cuba. And they found his body chopped up right before he was going to go into the House of Select Committee and assassinations. So, the mafia had a very strong hatred of the Kennedys and might be a party to a conspiracy. Um, further on down, some people believe Matt LBJ disliked the Kennedys and not to have him killed. I have my doubts about that, but there are some people that think that LBJ wanted to get rid of the Kennedy so he become president. Of course, that’s what happened. Behind LBJ is the completely the industrial military complex. The movie JFK, they wanted to talk about um Vietnam again, getting involved in Vietnam. and they kind of hint to it and they say, “Well, they have LBJ saying, well, you know, if you get me in the office of the president, you can have your war.” Of course, there’s a lot of things in JFK that was really dramatized and it’s not really accurate at all. It should never be confused as documentary. I don’t complain too much about it, but it was good for stimulating interest in the ’90s when it first came out. Although Stanley uh Stanley Caro actually uh talks about that quote um and published an article about that quote in which he said the quote is accurate, but he said uh Lyndon Johnson was telling all sorts of different things to different people at the time. Right. And getting get me into office is not the same as kill my predecessor. Yeah. So again, it can be meaningful. I don’t particularly think LBJ did it did it, but it’s possible. I can see some people believing that. Um, kind of going down through here, the communists, of course, Kennedy had completely the Russian communist, uh, Kennedy had completely embarrassed them during the Cuban missile crisis and made them back off. And then there was a whole thing with the nuclear and the cold war. Um, Castro and Cuba, Castro because of the Bay of Pigs and the missile crisis and Operation Mongoose where they were supposedly the Kennedy brothers and the CIA were trying to eliminate him by using mafia figures. These are, you know, all groups that kind of um dislike the Kennedys. The ant most common ones the anti-Castro Cubans that Oswald was involved with were the people who thought they were betrayed at the Bay of Pigs when Kennedy did not give them flight support and they wanted to get him out of office and this includes such people supposedly according to the movie JFK as David Ferry and Guy Banister and that whole group over New Orleans. Um, another we already talked about the military industrial complex. Oh yeah, some people believe that Kennedy was killed by radical religious people such as Southern Baptist because he was Catholic. I don’t put a lot of meaning in that, but this has been brought up. I know I have a stepbrother who insists that’s who who’s behind it. So whether that’s of course you have Israel. Yeah. Yeah. Israel and his you know all that in there. The hat people and that’s kind of a joke. Um, we we kind of teased that if Kennedy had pretty much if he put the hat on that morning, it was a test, they wouldn’t have killed him. But since he refused to put the hat on, right, and which might have killed the hat business, then maybe they conspired to have him killed, right? Any groups I missed that you didn’t that you didn’t hear in that list? Not offing on kind of wanted to turn it into a chat. Yeah, not off hand. I mean, there’s there’s there’s there’s lots of groups. I mean, I I don’t know if you want me to talk about any one of them or or or I don’t know how you want me to, you know, because there there I have comments on all of these sort of potential these groups. I mean you could for in particular like the CIA you can um Allan Dulles would be a particular uh candidate that a lot of people talk about as one person who or or James Ankleton would be two top people but Bill Harvey would be the other those are three CIA people that that are talked about a lot as being behind a plot. So the other question then comes up did O which of these groups did Oswald have ties to? Yes, very strongly he had ties to the anti-castro group. This back in Miami or excuse me, New Orleans where he tried to infiltrate that group and he had to debate against them on stage and so on so forth. But now he was doing a pro Castro Fair Play for Cuba committee chapter. He was about the only member and that’s a pro Castro group. So there’s some debate whether it was anti or pro. Um he also had ties allegedly to the CIA. This is the old uh John Etly Phillips and the Maurice Bishop story where some people um Martino I think is the his name uh John Martino were said that Oswald met with Maurice Bishop in the restaurant of the [snorts] hotel in Dallas and there was a meeting between the two not long before the assassination. So lots of groups there. Um and Oswaldo has had ties to Russia because he did try to um defect to Russia and then came back and he had ties to what’s the other group rightwing. That’s pretty much it. Most of the ties that he had to I don’t think he had ties to FBI and Hoover which I didn’t mention at all. I mean FBI did try to downplay their knowledge of Oswald. So any of these groups could have had multiple conspiracies open. So the question always came up I think when I joined uh the group Fair Play for Cuba for Fair Play for GFK excuse me on Facebook group which I moderate to this day. Uh when I joined that, the member had a poll where he said, “Did there exist conspiracies before November 22nd, 1963, or do you believe as Oswald acted alone?” And the third option he put was unknown. Well, I kind of bucked at that a little bit. Um I basically said, “Well, existence of conspiracy is not the same as was Oswalt involved with conspiracy or did a conspiracy kill it?” The question should have actually said been asked. Do you think Oswald asked alone or do you think he Kennedy was killed as a result of a conspiracy whether involving Oswald or not. So I’m kind of a fence sitter and you know this whole thing is kind of a fenceitter 101 type of discussion. I’m a completely conspira fence sitter on that and we’re all conspiracy theorists. Now, your book said conspiracy freak. What did you mean by conspiracy freak? What was it you believed at that time? Yeah. Well, and and people misinterpret that. I mean, first off, I’m very I was very very influenced by the comic strip Dunesbury. I don’t know if you know Dunesbury and Zoncker. Zoncker was one of the characters in Dunesbury and he always referred to himself as a freak, right? And a freak meant somebody who sort of was interested in something that was different. You know, he was sort of different. He had different interests and and he was a lovable freak, right? Um and that’s what I meant by this as a freak. I was a conspiracy freak. I was a not crazy. I was a nice guy, but I was I was sort of obsessed um like a nerd. I was obsessed with the JFK assassination. And it became a very very important part of my life. And so I was sort of a a conspiracy freak and I like to talk about about it to people. It wasn’t sort of anything nasty or negative in in my view. Yeah. I mean, usually back in those days, we usually called them conspiracy buffs. Yeah. Not conspiracy theorists. And of course, it was a take off of a movie title, you know, and so uh monster movie title, you know, and so it was a nice I thought it it made a nice juosition to use that term. Yeah. I mean it it’s always a lot of times it’s said by some conspiracy buffs that some of the people believe in lung nut find a certain comfort in that a certain comfort in believing that Oswald acted alone and the government got it right and the Warren Commission got it right and that’s it it’s over it’s done but there’s also certain cons comfort and I’m not saying everyone does this in being a conspiracy theorist because you reach a point in your life where you realize you’re not going to come up with the uh cure cure for cancer. You’re not going to become president, king of the world, president of the United States, you’re not going to be famous, you’re not going to be powerful, so on and so forth. And there’s some people, and it’s not everybody. I don’t criticize labels because none of the labels really point to group thinking, but there are some individuals that get more comfort in a conspiracy where big brothers holding them down or there’s some high cabal, you know, trying to run the world or um what what’s the latest term? secret government, whatever it’s called, the, you know, black ops, not black ops, but secret government, shadow government, trying to hold them down that keeps them from growing. And so, a lot of people conspiracy, but if you think about it, we’re all conspiracy theorists because we look at the theories and we evaluate. And so, we’re all conspiracy theorists in that we analyze and evaluate. Unfortunately, many of the people don’t do that. They just pretty much read the book and then whatever the latest book is, they go with it and then they go online and they start criticizing anyone who believes something else or something completely different. And I’ve been moderating for so long, I’ve been familiar with all the crazies. I mean, I can name every one of them on both sides. And we have crazies on both sides. So the conspiracy theorists were actually all conspiracy theorists in some role or another. Um so there’s a shade of different conspiracies in between those and that’s the reason for the title of the book shades from the fence is from a fence sitter’s viewpoint and talk about all the different shades conspiracy one of the concern a light gray if you want to call it that way is Oswald was the only gunman and he was influenced or would have an escape plan given him by others maybe the anti-Castro Cubans approached him or maybe his visit to Mexico City, Kostikov, in the Russian embassy said, “Well, if you do anything, let us know and we’ll spirit you away to Cuba.” And a lot of people like John Martino in the book, uh, someone would have talked or somebody would have talked basically said Oswald was supposed to kill the president and then he was supposed to meet and they would get him on a plane, David Ferry probably flying it, and take him to Cuba, but he would not be get all the way to Cuba. they would kill him in such a way to make Cuba the blame for it. So there’s a lot of setups of conspiracy that says Oswald was just being manipulated by people or influenced by people. Another shade of gray may be Oswald was the lone shooter in the building, but there were other shooters in other locations he didn’t know about. in which case they may have said, “Well, if you manage to get out, meet us at the library or at the Texas theater or meet us somewhere and we will get you out, but we don’t want to show up in Daily Plaza because it’s going to be crowded and we don’t want other people, you know, someone to grab one of us.” But there were other shooters he didn’t know about in other buildings or on the grassy null. And maybe he was just not told because if he knew there was other shooters, he may start jumping up and down saying, “They’re going to blame this on me as a pathy.” And he could have been just told, “Find your way back.” And that was the way he got it. And it goes on and on and on. Oswald helping others access the building. And if we could do a a podcast session on the interior of the building, I find that highly doubtful because it’s hard to get your people in and out of the building without them being seen by any of the employees. So I don’t think there’s another shoe in the building, but maybe Oswald helped it. I mean, the book The Men on the Sixth Floor talk about that. They talk about Mac Wallace and Loy Factor, I think, on the sixth floor and Oswald and the three of them were shooting. But the problem is with that, you still have to get people in and out of the building. or there could be complete conspiracies where Oswald was in the second floor lunchroom the entire time and again that’s highly questionable but when we get into this story so there’s a lot of different areas of conspiracy that you can talk about without going to the extremes unfortunately more often out than not out there is we’re making fun at the other extreme and that’s a whole tribalism thing which don’t get me started on that which I get to a lot about don’t be tribal about it. You know, I just because you’re a different tribe doesn’t mean you disagree or hate everybody on the other side. I try to treat people as individuals. And I and I I appreciate that. I mean, my the way I always put it is I I think that they’re sort of two sandboxes. And the conspiracy sandbox is a bigger sandbox and it’s a lot more fun because you could say whatever you want. You could throw things. Um whereas the non-conspiracy sandbox is a lot smaller. It’s not as much fun. um you typically can’t throw things. Um that’s the way I look at it. Well, I mean I that analogy is fine, but I would think it’s a long sandbox with a deep sand on one end, a shallow sand on the other, and it’s just one sand because there’s a lot of other people playing with a lot of sand in between you and the guy in the deepest sand. It’s actually harder for conspiracy theorists to prove their point because there’s so many different choices that they cannot really prove any one thing. is easier for the lone nut side or the lone gunman side to prove their point because they have the evidence the hard well and that’s and and one of the things I would ask you I mean is there an alternative theory to Oswald as a lone gunman and I asked that in the sense of it’s the only theory that explains all the evidence not all there are there are there is evidence of other shooters for instance There are about six or seven different places in the um in the street and on the sidewalk and in the grass where the House Select Committee Assassination received reports of impacts, bullet impacts. And if any more than two of them happened, one missed shot could possibly hit the street once and then hit the curb and then bounce up and hit TEG. But if any of those other impacts happened in street in different places throughout the street, then there had to be another shooter because Oswald didn’t have enough time to off that many shots. Yeah. And I get that. But the issue here is for me is if you if your theory I mean whatever the Oswald is a lone gun is the only coherent theory that explains the the fragments and the bullets and and a whole variety of other evidence tippet everything else. It explains that. Whereas once you get into a any one of those CIA Allen Dulles um all of a sudden you start veering away from you can’t explain everything and that’s the the the issue I have here is is that there is no actual competing theory which does which explains as much I would say as the lone gunman theory. There’s no competing theory when you’re saying that there were the shooters were conspirators, not Oswald. I agree with that. But if Oswald was one of many shooters, whether he knew about them or not, then the hard evidence in the building would still point to Oswald. Of course, there would still be could still be other shooters other locations. They didn’t have to have shell casings because they didn’t have to eject their one single shot. And so there could be, but the hard evidence does point to Oswald being a probably the lone only gunman in the Texas School Book Depository. And that’s the reason I say that’s a much easier point to prove. Yep. Because of hard evidence. I do believe Oswald would have been convicted in the 1964 Dallas trial had there been one. Of course, we’ll never know what Oswald would have said in his own defense. I doubt if he would ever stood up and jump up and down point to someone else because and that’s a question comes up a lot on my tours. Well, if it was Oswald, then why did he come running out of the building and saying it’s it wasn’t me. If it wasn’t Oswald, why would he allow himself to get set up? Well, he might allow himself to set up because he may have been told, “We’re going to take you to Cuba and you’re going to be a hero.” And he let someone else in the building. Again, I find that doubtful. But if I’m Oswald, I would not and I’m not do a shooter, I would make sure I would be standing out front with the vice president of the of the building where I could be seen and I would make sure I have an alibi. I even if I’m setting myself up, I would try to do that anyway. If I’m not actively up there shooting, I would want to be somewhere where I could prove I was there. The other question comes up is if he knew about other people like he’s involved in the conspiracy, why not tell there’s other people? The minute you admit there’s other people involved in the assassination, that incrim incriminates you as well. You can’t just say, “I knew about it and they did the actual shooting because it doesn’t really matter if you’re involved even as a getaway driver in a bank robbery and the bank someone is killed in the bank, you’re still guilty of murder in the state of Texas.” Yeah. because you did a felony that involved you and you knew about it and if someone was killed, you’re involved for murder. So again, it’s not a question of is Oswald why wouldn’t Oswald help set himself up or would he try to try to do an alibi? So, I do believe he was the only shooter in the building, but whether or not he told someone, whether or not he had escape plans with someone, again, my tour, we go Oswell’s escape route, and is very hard looking at that escape route to show that he planned it. It’s like, and Oswwell’s a smart individual. I mean, by the age of 24, most of us have not gotten ourselves in and out of the Marines, been a radar operator, taught ourselves Russian, got ourselves into the Soviet Union, married a wife. Of course, some of us have married by that age, had a baby, you know, got ourselves back with a loan from the State Department. You know, it’s he’s done a lot of things for his 24 year old. Been in debates about communism, socialism, again, learning Russian while in the Marines. I mean, that can’t be easy. It’s not like the Mar Well, the Marines did have a course on teaching Russian. Military intelligence did have a course out to El Toro, California. And Oswald was supposedly stationed there for a while. But whether or not he was stationed there long enough to learn Russian, I don’t know. But it’s not like it’s an easy thing to do in the military. is teach yourself Russian. So, a lot of different things in there that makes it kind of questionable. And as you know, in my book, I I list over 150 seeds of doubt is what I call Yeah. And I, you know, I do have some issues with some of the seeds of doubt. For instance, uh well, pre-nowledge pre-nowledge of the assassination. I mean, you list you list some people in there that I’ve done a lot of research on like Richard Case Niguel um who uh was a complete fraud who I don’t believe had any pre-nowledge of anything or Rose Sheream um or Joseph Miltier. I don’t think there’s anybody who who you could say that really had pre-nowledge that is credible. And at same list, Rose Sheremy that was also the detective, Lieutenant Fruge, that supposedly interviewed her in the hospital and the doctors involved in it. And uh John Martino, this another person in Larry Hancock’s book, Somebody would have talked. John Martino supposedly kept his kid home from school that day and said, “Watch the news while I paint the kitchen. Let me know if anything goes on.” And once the assassination happened, he stopped painting the kitchen. He started making phone calls to all sorts of people. He claims he was a moneyman for the anti-Castro Cubans. And so that was another person that supposedly had pre-nowledge. Again, it’s the the problem with seeds of doubt is, and I say it in my book, any of them can be explained. They’re not all credible witnesses. Yep. They’re not all credible people. And a lot of people after the fact came out and said they were involved that may not do it. At least Rose Sheremy it was beforehand and Jose the problem with Rose Sher is is that is that there was no contemporaneous report of her saying anything at the at the time uh after right after the assassination. There just there just isn’t um Fuj Fuj Fuja only came forward uh with that claim in 1978. In 1967, he wrote a report for Jim Garrison where he said the only statement she made was that Ruby and Oswald were bed partners. And in his statement, he said, “Any other statements by Sheream is hearsay.” Hearsay, did she actually say it while in the hospital beforehand though? Nobody, but there’s not one witness who claims that she did except for Fuja in 78. Okay. Okay. And the other thing about Fujer is that um uh what a lot of people don’t realize is that Fujer uh for you know he had a he was investigating Sheremy and Clinton with with Anne Dishler. They were they were Garrison’s investigators and they had an affair together and he then embezzled money uh from uh Anne Dishler. Um and he confided in her that he had um manufactured evidence in a murder case. Okay. Okay. Um just real quick since I don’t know how many people watched all your sessions, let’s just talk about Nagel or Yeah. How’ you pronounce his name? Uh well, it’s hard. Sometimes some people say Niguel, some people say Nagel and I nobody uh Dick Russell says uh both were used. So I don’t I’m not sure what the real pronunciation is. So for the other people watching this and not unfamiliar with that, let me recap that very briefly and you come and correct me whenever you need to. Uh basically um the man who knew too much was the name of the book by Dick Russell. And according to him, Nagel walked into a bank in El Paso, I believe in September of 63. That’s right. And he pretty much handed the cashier a note that said, “Give me your money.” And then cashier kind of took the note, stepped away a little bit. He fired two shots in the ceiling of the bank and then walked out and stayed by his car until the cops showed up and they arrested him. And according to Dick Russell, they basic he basically said he knew there was going to be an assassination attempt and he did not want to be set up as the psy intentionally got himself arrested. So fill that gap whatever you need to. Uh yeah. Well, actually he got into his car after the bank robbery and we stopped while he was in his car driving away. But um again there’s no evidence that he he before you know that he had any knowledge before the assassination and and it’s only after the assassination that some of these reports start to happen. The problem with Nagel is that in 1954 he was in in an airplane crash um while he was return going into uh Washington from Los Angeles and he was the sole survivor of this airplane crash. He laid in the wreckage for 12 hours and he had a a serious concussion. Um he was in the hospital for for several months and he suffered uh organic brain damage. Um and that was on top of two concussions that he got during the Korean War. So when he returned to service, he went into military intelligence. um he started to become very very erratic and very paranoid and he started accusing all of his superiors of all sorts of issues and eventually he had to leave leave the military and he went into civilian life in Los Angeles and he had trouble holding down a job um and and that’s part of the story. He had brain damage and there’s just no evidence of of any of his claims uh holding any water. I mean, in fact, I think he made his claims uh largely to get people to to help him. He started with the garrison people, telling the garrison people about some of his claims because the garrison assistant DAS actually wrote his writ for habius corpus. he got them to write like a 90page writ um and then he got uh he got Bernard Fester later to help him with his law case uh against the US government in which he claimed he was he claiming that he was uh he had organic brain damage um and he wanted to get a full disability pension and so once these people stopped working for him he uh he then stopped talking to people. I think he just wanted help. Yeah. and and he was a very like like you said a very unstable unreliable witness because of the brain damage and he later was committed at one point or the government tried to get him committed. Correct. Well, he No, he was he was in while he was in prison he had many psychiatric examinations and he was in he was at Springfield which was the medical center for federal prisoners uh where he was under you know psychiatric evaluation. But once he got released, he had he actually had a series of himself checking into VA hospitals claiming of headaches, memory problems, um all sorts of of mental issues over and over and over again uh many many times. He he actually uh and I think it was a plea for help. Okay, good. Um since we brought up Rose Sheremy, let me recap that a little bit for sure. Yeah. People viewing for the viewers. Rose Shermy was basically a some accused prostitute, some accused her of drug running, but she supposedly got into a car with a bunch of men going to Dallas. They pushed her out of the car. She was badly damaged. She was freaked out out of her mind on drugs and was hospitalized in Louisiana somewhere. I don’t remember the exact parish. And uh we mentioned Lieutenant Fruge, which is kind of the guy who interviewed Rose Sheream. And allegedly she was during the time she was in the hospital, she was kind of ranting and raving about they’re going to go kill Kennedy and these guys supposedly claimed all that and then shoved her out of the car. That’s pretty much the thumbnail sketch of Rose Sherman. Yeah. And and what I find really amazing about her is that supposedly she talks about the assassination before it happened and Fujer goes to pick her up on the Monday after the assassination. He checks her out of the hospital and what does he do? He she has information about a drug deal. So he calls he was working narcotics. He calls his superiors in the Louis Louisiana State Police and they tell him, “Okay, um, contact the people in Texas. Take her to Houston to help work this drug deal.” Doesn’t contact the FBI about the assassination. He takes her to Houston to work a drug deal with federal customs agents. They start working this drug deal and the agents uh then contact the Houston they look up her record and they find out that she’s wanted in Houston and this is I have the physical the written reports and they say you know what that’s it we’re not interested in they just let her just let her go because we’re not interested. I mean I I don’t understand how Fuja if she really had said something about the assassination how he could not have gone to the FBI. Well, again, if she’s that out of it and involved with all the other stuff, even Fuja may recognize she’s very unreliable witness that it’s not worth pursuing with the FBI. I mean, he probably should have mentioned it and we we did find out about the House Select Committee on Assassinations, but you know, it wasn’t at the time that she was reliable enough that he would try to pursue it or really push it. Not one witness from the hospital came forward to the FBI or the Warren Commission. Not one. Right. Okay. And we also mentioned Joseph Miltier. So, let’s go ahead and cover that for the viewers, too. Um, trying to play catchup cleanup as we go here. Yeah. Um, Joseph Miltier was pretty much recorded. He was with an FBI informant by the name of William Somerset. They had a recording, the manipul kind of played the recording where he basically said he’s going to be shot from a high-powered building uh with a rifle or I’m sorry, high building with a rifle, high-powered rifle. And the guy is going to have to take the blame for it. And that was pretty much a recording that came out the men who killed Kennedy. So again, maybe pre-nowledge, maybe not. Where you going to fill a gap there? Well, he actually named a person who would actually do the shooting. He actually named a name and that person wasn’t anywhere in Dallas at all. It was just sort of a general general discussion about what, you know, what could, you know, how we could get Kennedy. Uh, in fact, Kennedy himself actually mentioned, “Hey, somebody could shoot me from a building.” Um, so it’s not it doesn’t really actually it’s not really real pre-nowledge of of an actual event. Okay. So, I haven’t got my seeds of doubt right here. I think there was also a little um a radio operator or something over in London that pretty much said something’s going on. and I can’t think of his name right off the top of my head right now, but it was also in the seeds of diet dow pre-nowledge. We also mentioned again the pre-nowledge of Gianana Trafocanti um Marcelo maybe Roselli even though he was not making a statement like the other three did and even Jimmy Hoffen and I didn’t mention Labor and the eventual people that hated but Kennedy’s but Jimmy Hoff and the labor thing and those are also kind of mentioned in my seeds of Dallas pre-nowledge the thing I’m getting at is they show that there may have been a conspiracy or multiple conspiracies because many of these groups I’m talking about might have had a conspiracy in place. Every president has conspiracies against him. Everyone has. That does not mean that he was killed as a result of one of those conspiracies. So if Joseph Milter thinks, you know, he’s hanging around with his right-wing or you know, white supremist buddies, I forget which group he was in, something like that, and he’s overheard someone talking. He may know of a conspiracy but it may not be the one that killed Kennedy. So there’s the existence going back to the question when I first joined this group is the existence of conspiracy is not the same as Kennedy was killed as a result or as part of conspiracy. Right. Yeah. So that’s one of the reasons I’m on the fence is I can’t really rule out the existence of conspiracies. I’m sure there were some and some of these people with pre-nowledge may have been knowing about those conspiracies but not necessarily the one if there was one that killed Kennedy. Unsuccessful conspiracies is you know so that’s the reason we’re all kind of conspiracy theorists because we’re evaluating all these different conspiracies. It does not necessarily mean we believe Oswald or we believe Kennedy was killed as a result of conspiracy. Well, I get your I get your point and I think it’s a very important one and I I sort of I agree with you. The the only issue I have is that as I go through the list of those people um you know there’s no firm evidence of any real conspiracy there. Of course there might have been like you say but there’s no firm evidence any of them were you know and I go down even the list further. I mean Abraham Balden and the plot in Chicago I mean again that I think that didn’t happen at all. Um, Dinkens, Eugene Dinkens was absolute crazy. I mean, I did several blog posts on Eugene Dinkens. Rosco, was Dinkens the radio operator I was thinking of. Could be the radio operator. Yeah, he was a radio operator and I did several blog posts on him and the ra I mean the stuff he sent to the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which I put in my blog post. I mean, he was just uh he was just seeing he was just making, you know, I don’t know, just visions, you know. Yeah, maybe. Oh, it’s incredible. I mean, he was seeing mapped. I mean, you should read some of my posts and well, you see what he sent the HSCA. You’ll laugh when you actually read it. Um, well, since you brought him up, let’s talk about Abraham Balden very briefly. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Basically, there was a trip planned trip to Chicago and they Chicago police, I don’t remember exactly who it was, arrested a number of people that had weapons. Some people say similar to the Carcano. And so they cancelled the trip to Chicago. And Abraham Baldwin was a Secret Service agent that reported all this. And so he later kind of got in a lot of trouble as a Secret Service agent reporting all this. But they canled that Chicago trip. Yeah. So they did cancel that Chicago trip. That was for November 2nd. They canceled it because of the DM assassination, which was huge news. Um there were there’s no evidence of of anybody being uh being uh arrested with rifles except for uh for uh Valet who was arrested and and uh and they found he did have a rifle. Uh but there’s no evidence that he made a threat against Kennedy and he was not involved in a plot. um that there it’s just that there’s only the only uh source for a plot in Chicago is Abraham Balden and he was the one who told um um he was the source for the story in the Chicago independent newspaper that Edwin Black wrote in in years later. Um he was the sole source for that story about a plot. Um there’s just no evidence to sustain it. And what I find interesting about Balden is that in May 1964 after he was charged with bribery, he he he had a press conference in Chicago to talk about um Secret Service and their problems in guarding Kennedy. They were drinking. They were doing a whole variety of of really bad things. He didn’t mention a plot in Chicago. Okay? Not one word. He only came forward with a plot in Chicago in 1967 when he talked to Mark Lane and Richard Burns, who was an assistant district attorney with Garrison’s office. And then Balden told the two of them that two of the names that were involved in Garrison’s investigation were two of the shooters, Bradley and uh Gonzalez. Isn’t that strange? He all of a sudden he picked two names out of the out of the uh Garrison inquiry and of course it was all nonsense. Well, I mean, yeah, pre-nowledge, no one really came forward ahead of time to warn anybody. Most of it talked about it afterwards. You mentioned Maline Duncan Brown. Well, we didn’t get to Maline Brown. We You mentioned Mac Wallace. Let’s recap on Mac Wallace a little bit briefly. Um, M. Wallace was a crony of LBJ. He supposedly at one time killed a uh tennis instructor or golf instructor. I forget which it was in, you know, that had been dating Josepha Johnson, which is Lyndon Johnson’s sister. And he supposedly got [clears throat] probation for it, for murder, but he was convicted of murder and got probation for it. And LBJ, and he was a crony. and one of his one of El LBJ’s cronies and some people the men on the sixth floor is this the book I’m thinking of where they say he was a shooter up on the sixth floor and he left a thumb print up there even though there’s no providence on that thumbrint it just suddenly showed up the men who killed Kennedy and we don’t know where it came from it wasn’t necessarily on a box according to Studebaker and the rest of them so there’s no real providence on that thumbrint it was Mac Wallace pro thumb print supposedly So he was kind of mentioned there. Anything in there I’m kind of missing as well I don’t really know his story that well. All I know is Joan Melon who I who I don’t like that much but Joe Melon did some research and she said that that the fingerprint was not Mac Wallace’s thumbprint. Right. But uh there’s a lot that she’s written on that. Yeah. She did a whole book on that particular subject I think. And so it was after the fact. And while we’re talking about after the fact let’s talk about Maline Duncan Brown very briefly. Maline Duncan Brown was supposedly LBJ’s mistress, had a son with LBJ. And while LBJ was alive, he always sent some money to help her support the son. Now, once he died, Ladybird cut that off. The weekend of the assassination, she supposedly went to a party and she claimed in her book, Hoover was at that party that night. This is the night before the assassination, right? Now, it was at the Minson’s house. And later on, she said it may have been Merkinson Jr., one of the kids’ house instead. But we know for record that LBJ was not at in Dallas that day because he kept a record where he was and he did not fly to Dallas that weekend. But she mentioned all that and she supposedly confronted LBJ afterwards at a party and basically said, “Everyone seems to think you’re behind it, the assassination.” and he reportedly, and it was the only sensational part of her book, told her, “If you want to talk about who’s behind it, look at your Dallas Oilmen buddies,” which were a lot of the Dallas Oilmen, the right-wing oilmen in Dallas. And a lot of people believe that they were behind the assassination. Again, I mentioned that in my list of conspiracies that possible people dislike Kennedy and that includes Ted De, my cousin, my first cousin twice removed, whatever it was, who actually got into an argument with Kennedy in ‘ 61 in September told him he was soft on communism and he was like Caroline riding the tricycle around the White House instead of being a gallant ste on a on a white horse. So, there are a lot of people that said afterwards they did it. My point is is that does not eliminate a conspiracy. There are multiple conspiracies that could have been there, but that does not prove that Kennedy was killed as a part of a conspiracy. So, when I’m on the fence, it’s pretty much that I do believe Oswald was a shooter. I’m about 85% convinced of that. 95% that he shot Tippet. And of course, the argument always is if he, you know, if he didn’t shoot Tippet, well, why would he pull a gun of McDonald in the theater? And if he um shot Tippet, if he didn’t shoot Kennedy, why would he kill Tippet? And that gets into the whole and on tours we talk about Oswell’s escape plan and the lack of thereof. So it all kind of goes around the circle. Oswald could have been involved, but that does not eliminate conspiracies and it does not eliminate him being part of conspiracy. The one thing I I would add on Oswald and and uh is is that Oswald has a has as as as a lone gunman uh his person he he he was very much a loner. He he he didn’t have that many friends and so would you know I don’t know whether he would have had conspirators and when would would those people have contacted him because it was when did he make the decision to to kill Kennedy? That’s what I, you know, we know that in a rooming house, I mean, he he he didn’t have visitors and he would come home after work and be alone in his room. He did have a phone. He knew the phone number there. So, he could be called and then go to dinner somewhere, walk across the restaurants, you know, there was he he didn’t drive, so it wouldn’t be a way like he could go and contacted a lot of people or drive around, meet a lot of people. They would have to come by and pick him up or meet him someplace close by so he could walk to it. But, we don’t know that. You’re right. Oswald is a loner, so we don’t know that he was involved with any of these people. We do know, and the problem I have with the Warren Commission is they pretty much disregard all of his history, his defection, all of his pro and anti-Castro activities in New Orleans. They pretty much ignore all that and just kind of shrug their shoulders. The Warren Commission did not say Oswald acted alone. They said they could not find evidence of conspiracy. That’s all they That’s as far as they went. And LBJ kind of implied when he got Warren to join it by saying you could save the lives of 40 million people that he thought Castro, Cuba, Russia might be behind it. Yeah. Or or did he say that because he thought that the rumors might force the Americans into the government into doing something they they shouldn’t do? I mean, he was worried about the rumors at at some point very early on. I think because of the NSA, they really had an indication that the the Russians and Cubans weren’t involved. And and that’s kind of what research has pretty much showed the Russians were worried about. They were worried about the anti- or the right-wing or anti-Castro Cubans were setting them up. And that’s a very common uh motive is basically is they used a person that had been to Russia that involved with the pro-castro to be the shooter so they could put the blame at the door of Russia andor Cuba. If it’s the mafia, the CIA, anti-Castro Cubans, that’s all their motives. Could be their motives. I’m not saying it is their motives. I’m saying it could be. And so there’s a lot of, you know, why would you kill Kennedy in such a public way using an ex defector? And the answer comes back, well, if if it’s a conspiracy, and again, that’s a big if, then the reason to do that is so you can point the blame back to Castro and use that as excuse to finally invade Cuba and get rid of Castro, because you’ve got a pro Castro, pro-communist who went to Mexico City and tried to go back to Cuba. And again, the guy in Mexico City, Costikoff, who was the director of the Western Assassination Bureau, according to CIA, basically met with Oswald and maybe he said, “Well, if you do it, we’ll get you free to Cuba.” So, I can’t eliminate conspiracy. Again, the hard evidence does not point to conspiracy. The hard evidence points to Oswald. But the reason I stay on the fence is I cannot completely eliminate a conspiracy that Oswald was involved with or at least encouraged by. Whether or not that’s a conspiracy involving all other shooters, multiple shooters, shooters besides Oswald or setting him up as a py without him being a shooter, I can’t go that far either. But there are a lot of shades of conser conspiracy between those two extreme ends. And so it kind of amuses me when all the conspiracy people say, “Well, you guys believe Oswald acted completely alone, but what about all this other information?” And then all the people acted alone pretty much say, “Well, we’re going to ignore all that other information. You guys have these wow conspiracies where the hat people did it for an example.” And you can’t prove it. And so those of us, there are a lot more fence setters out there than most of us believe. But some people that can be true. I mean, I I do I do think that once you do have Oswald as the shooter, it really narrows the possibilities. Uh it does of of conspiracy dramatically because of the nature of who he is and and [clears throat] u yeah, I think that’s that’s just a truism. I think it doesn’t narrow the existence of conspiracies, but it does narrow whether or not Oswald was acting with a conspiracy or there was a conspiracy of shooters and Oswald was not a shooter. It does narrow those two down. I do think Oswald was involved. Now, whether or not he was part of conspiracy, again, very nature of Oswald, he’s a very private individual. He pretty much doesn’t have any friends. George Deorn Shield aside, he didn’t see him that often by that time of 63 anyway. That was his earlier trip to Dallas that he left in April of there and went to New Orleans. So, he didn’t have any friends. He didn’t have any transportation. He did not have a way to get away or go meet people um unless they picked him up. So, again, I can’t completely eliminate conspiracies, but I don’t think there was conspiracy. And there were shooters everywhere and they didn’t know Oswell was going to be shooting from the sixth floor museum or sixth floor sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I find that hard to believe that Oswwell just happened to be there shooting at the same time that someone else was shooting other locations. I can’t buy that one at all. [laughter] But it kind of goes up and down. So that’s kind of the nature of fence sitting and well I I have to say that I you know again I I strongly recommend that people buy this book and um it is it is you know worthy it is worth worthy of being on in every JFK library um around and there’s a it it is there’s a it’s chalk full of really really important information. I look forward to our next uh discussion on the Texas School Book Depository. Yeah, because I wrote at least four chapters on the movements inside the school book depository. Nobody knows better than you and I I presented that many times at conference and I’ve given tours and National Geographic. I gave them tour when they came out with the movie Killing Kennedy. I gave all those guys a tour. Um, and so on so forth. I almost called the book dummy, you know, for dummies. JFK assassination for dummies. But the minute you do that, you insult the audience and they won’t grab it off the shelf. No one buys a four dummy or no one is seen buying a four dummy book. Uh but the the four dummies books have done very well actually. You know they’ve actually they’ve done very very well. Well, you pretty much order them by mail. You don’t [laughter] go to a store with your friends and say, “Oh, by the way, I want to stop and pick up this four dummy.” Given the way everybody buys through Amazon these days and nobody goes to a bookstore. Um you know, which is unfortunate because I I I really miss my bookstores. Um very sad. Anyways, it’s another topic. Well, look, thank you very much for um appearing and uh I can’t wait for one more thing real quick for your listeners. And the reason I almost called it for dummies is it’s a good intro book if you’re undecided.

Now, if your mind is made up 100% a conspiracy or 100% Oswald, don’t bother buying the book. Well, I disagree with you. I think that if no matter what’s if you’re 100% Oswald or or the other way, there’s really important stuff in here.

Thank you for saying that.

I mean, I I I I you know, uh this is the you know, the as far as the movements in the building, I probably cover that in more detail than anybody. anybody absolutely anybody else and and very important stuff and they’re in also the the police and what happened what they did what people did and uh testimony and and it’s a very important source book um for what happened after the right after the assassination. It’s it’s it’s

it’s terrific.

Okay. Thank you.

Well, thank you uh for appearing. I look forward to our next uh episode because uh people should know exactly uh what happened and what didn’t happen um after the assassination. So, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Look forward to it. Okay, [music] great.

And here is the “sequel” where they discuss the interior layout of the Texas Schoolbook Depository.

Transcript of Part 2, ( Episode 46):

Welcome to another edition of “On the Trail of Delusion,”

 where I try to separate the wheat from the chaff and give you something substantial on the JFK assassination 

rather than some of the usual nonsense you find on the internet and on YouTube.  

And please, please subscribe to this channel if you find this content interesting. 

Well, today we’re back for part two of our discussion with Jerry Dealey, who is an expert on Dealey Plaza and also a great tour guy, 

all around good guy, and somebody who has written a great great book  about the JFK assassination. 

So, uh, welcome Jerry for part two. 

Thank you for having me back. 

Okay, so now we’re going to talk about the Texas School Book Depository. 

And you are probably the world’s best expert on the School Book Depository, uh, bar none. 

So, uh, 

well, best expert probably in the research community. 

But Frasier is still out there and he knows the building much better than I did. He was working there. 

Yeah, he was working there. 

I don’t know whether he could actually talk about it the way you do. Well, I mean, he he’s he’s a little older than me, so yeah, he’s got a few years a decade on me, I think. 

Right. 

But yeah, when he was doing his book, he actually came to my place of work and we went through a lot of these same photos we’re going to cover today, right? 

Because he had heard that I knew had a lot of them and stuff, so I gave him a bunch of. Of course, he didn’t use any of them in his book, but we talked about it for a while. That’s good.

 Okay. So, where do you want to start? 

I’m just going to go ahead and start. I mean, I’m pretty pretty much walk through it. This one’s going to be a lot of photos, and I have to apologize for those of you are watching on your phone. 

It’s going to be very hard to see some of these photos on your phone, I’m sure. Um, but we’re going to kind go through I think about almost 45 different photos as I talk. I’m going to talk about them and stuff. Um, so that’s kind of an apology up front. I really suggest if you’re going to watch it, get a nice big computer screen and watch it there. But um and so I’m not sure all the photos are available in my either of my books. Some of them are. And of course, we’ll talk mention those as we go through. So I’m going to first start a little bit. Let me pull my glasses. I need them to read and keep me from bumping into walls. Um pretty much how I got started with this. Again, I was a moderator starting in the late 90s. And around the late 90s, there was a rumor. I got into family history, dely family, all the rest of it, the Dallas Morning News. And a rumor on the internet in the forums basically said the 64 museum was going to close Dy Plaza and block it off and start charging admission. And someone responded back and said, “Well, they did that, then the De family would take it back.” And it occurred to me no one had any clue about parks and recreation and how cities take property and the rest of it. So that’s when I wrote my first book and I did all the research of it. So pretty much DY never owned no one in the Dy family actually owned the property at Deal Plaza is on. However, GB DY, the uh president of the Dallas Morning News, did own 14 acres on the other side of the triple underpass at one time, which was river bottom land. And so he did own it. And when they opened De Plaza, they tunnneled under the existing railroads to build the triple underpass. And they uh got right away for De in exchange for tax breaks for the property he owned. It wasn’t actually dedicated until I think the 20 20th anniversary or 30th anniversary of the plaza and that’s when there was a 30th anniversary, excuse me, of the shooting, the JFK shooting is when the De family went ahead and contributed land permanently to the city. So, I’m going to kind of walk through the plaza. I’m going to focus mainly on the movements inside the Texas School Book Depository. This is a picture of the sewer on Elm Street. This is with the cover off. And used to be when I was doing tours, we could just reach down and pick the cover up because it was made out plastic. It was light, but someone fell in there a few years ago. So, they welded it back shut. Taken in the mid 90s by researcher Michael Parks, I think Greg James was helping him, that shows the inlet pipes inside that sewer. There’s basically from the top of the null, there’s a 15-inch pipe that comes in from the top of the grassy null, the north grassy null, and there’s also another pipe, and you can see both of them in this picture, about 12 in, 15 in, somewhere in that range that goes from up on Elm Street extension, and then comes down the grassy null, the grass area into that sewer. They’re joined by another pipe that goes out to the center of Main Street, another 15-inch pipe. Actually, this is the one coming down from Elm Street. I apologize, but there’s another pipe that’s about 15 in. It goes down the center of Main Street and it empties into a sewer pipe that’s about 24 in right under the center of Main Street and then Main Street it flows down towards Industrial under the triple underpass and there it joins at 33 inch and then eventually that empties out. It’s a storm drain so it empties out into the Trinity River bottom. There is no way a shooter could escape through those pipes unless he can get through a 15inch diameter pipe. So the old the men who killed Kenny, I think it was episode five or six that said there was a shooter inside that that storm drain there on Elm Street. They didn’t escape that way. Let’s put it that way. In that episode, you could actually see, but you see him talking, staying in the pipe, but then he gets up, closes the pipe, walks away, and then they cut to him coming out of a storm drain, but a couple blocks north on Continental in the Triny River Bottle, and they imply he went all the way under inside the sewer. That’s it’s not possible. He actually walked away. Um Jim Garrison believed there was a shooter up on the grassy null on the storm drain up there that feeds into this pipe. So slide two you can see that this was kind of from the Jim Garrison investigation and there’s a storm drain up on the north null and it was pretty much just a storm drain for water runoff. There was a pipe in there that goes to the far side of the parking lot up there by the railroad tracks because there’s now a sidewalk there. I’m not sure was there in ‘ 63. Again, you can see by the weeds and stuff. This was not paved back in 67 when Garrison was doing the investigation. An assassin in the sewer have a have a a shot? Could he taken a shot at at the motorcade? One of the things they came up with that shows Greg James standing on the 50 feet below the spot the X where the head shot occurred, right? And you can see him out through the front of this uh drain pipe, but you can barely see him because of the pavement because the angle of the of the drain there. So, no, he’s 50 feet down for it was you can barely see him on the left edge of this storm drain. So the opening was certainly wide enough that you could shoot from there, but unless you are turning a rifle sideways, you wouldn’t be able to shoot that far uphill to where the X is. So we’re basically going to talk just a little bit about the tech school. Um again, kind of a 100x 100x 100 square building, completely cube shaped, and it’s seven floors. Now, this used to be a fivestory building back in in the early days when it was first built, 1898. It was a five-story building, but they had a fire in 1901. And at that time, they added the sixth and seventh floor when they rebuilt it. So, if you see roof supports on the facade in front on the fifth floor, and the fifth floor is the last one that’s not got a round circular window on it, you can see roof supports. That’s as tall as the building used to be. back in the day. Um, this area of Dley Plaza basically before it became Dley Plaza and this next picture goes basically to what the plaza looked like in 1850s, 1860s. And Main Street is the street coming right in front in the foreground. That’s Houston Street. And you can see the Crutchfield House, which was up the corner of Maine and Houston. The railroad yard was specific, which is a block behind the schoolbook depository. And the schoolbook depository lot was used by Guo’s Carriage Works. And that was from about 18 1860s up through um 1898 when they rebuilt and they built the Texas School Book Depository. And of course, it wasn’t called that at the time. It was called the Rock Allen Plow Company. Um again, 1901, they have a fire. This is pretty much the fire newspaper article. and it it pretty much burned out the entire guts of the building. So they rebuilt it and they added the sixth and seventh floor at that time. So it was bought by David Herald Bird in the 196 or 30s and then he rented it to Sexton Grocery Supply. So this is pretty much the Sexton plant, the grocery supply and it stayed that way from 36 on through the years. And there was basically three entrances into the building or two main entrances to the building. There was the front entrance everyone’s familiar with right there on Elm Street extension. There was back by the dock. There was a dock door entrance. And you can see that this is the dock back here in the back. And this is the the eastern dock north side northeast corner of the building. You can see the uh row of windows there. Second from the right. That is the elevator shaft of the freight elevator. There was a row of windows in that elevator sha shaft. So, those are signs to warn people that that’s an elevator shaft. So, if there’s a fire or something, the firemen don’t try to break into that window and fall to their death down the elevator shaft. And we’ll get to the elevator in just a couple minutes. And this the back door in the building. So, this is the door that Oswald and Buier would come in in the mornings when they came in to work. They would park the north warehouse. And we’ll get to the North Texas warehouse in a couple minutes. And they would come in this back door. The office personnel pretty much parked on the grassy null. They had parking there, the ladies that worked in the office and they would usually come in the front door was open. The third door we’ll get to in just a minute, but we’re going to go on and we’re going to look at this dock door a little bit closer. And this is the dock door, the entrance door to Houston Street. This is from the FBI photographs. Now, this door did not actually go into the building. It went into this dock. There was a dock structure there on the um that side the north side of the building and it went into that dock structure. So some people ask me, well where could Oswald he was not seen coming into the building carrying a package? He could have stashed it into that dock room easily and then walked in to make sure the coast is clear and people were at work before he went and got it and then took it upstairs the sixth floor. So don’t know for sure. That’s all speculation, but it’s possible. Jack Dhy’s the only one who said they saw Oswell come in that morning. Bu Wesley Frasier was about 50 feet behind him. Frasier had stayed and warmed up his battery, tried to charge it up a little bit because he had been warning the windshield wipers that had rain that morning. And so Oswald went in alone, had the jacket tucked under his arm maybe or the rifle tuck under his arm and the package and maybe even had the package tucked under his the front of his jacket. We don’t know for sure. And that would indicate, you know, no one would be able to see from the outside. It had been raining that morning. So that’s the uh and said Doy said they only saw saw him through the corner of his eye. He wasn’t okay massive attention. Did not remember him carrying a package, but then again a brown package tucked under your jacket or tucked under your arm. No one may notice it. Depends on how much of a glimpse and door he got. It like he was standing there checking everyone coming in the door or something. Again, all the movements in the warehouse, this is long before closed circuit TV. You got to remember the video cameras that they used for television were huge monsters. They’re about five foot tall and they rolled around on huge wheels and you can see them in the um Dallas police station from that weekend and they were huge. And there were not individual portable cameras and closed circuit cameras were very much unheard of. If you might have a bank vault or something, it might have one or bank tellers or something like that. But it was still very rare because the technology just wasn’t there yet. And people forget about the other dock building a lot. There’s actually two dock buildings. This is the west side of the building. And there are two dock buildings. One extending on the north side and one extending on the west side. And this side door behind that overhang right there, right to the left of it, you can see a side door that could be used after it was open. It was very seldom it was open, but they may open it for a ventilation. And there were four overhead doors that went into the schoolbook depository proper from the outside. So, people forget about this. We will come back to this picture. Oh, by the way, the Dallas County Sheriff’s did used to park in this little lot there by the overhang. It had a gate on it, and that’s where they used to park so they could get to their cars in a hurry in case some emergency came up so they wouldn’t have to go to a parking structure or something else. And so they parked there and they had a key to the gate and there’s a fence gate on the outside of it. And then like I said the secretaries parked in the parking lot there at the grassy null there the railroad yards. We want to talk about Bule Frasier and Oswalt. They worked at the north house. So I want to get a little bit details about what these buildings were and what they were used for. This building was where the offices of the Texas School Book Company were. They had been in 1961. Well, President Jack Kasein bought the company in the 30s and he built it into business. Opened the company, started the company in the 30s and built it into a major business and it pretty much supplied school books to Texas. It also supplied some school books to some schools in uh Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, I think New Mexico as well. And he bought it in the 30s. In 1961, it moved from 1900 block of Pacific Avenue. Pacific being the road that runs behind the Texas School Book Depository back in those days. And they moved into the Dowex building and from 61 to 62 and they’re on the 62C directors being in the Dowex building. That’s their offices, but they had a second warehouse up north and that this warehouse would cover the small office orders. Um, basically it would do the smaller orders that would get in the ones and twos orders, but the Texas warehouse, which was a couple blocks north or three blocks north of the Munger and Broadway, uh, did the big bulk shipments. So, like if a school year started and a school needed, you know, two cases of books, they would be shipped out of that office or that building. And Bonnie Ray Williams, for an example, was an employee of that office normally. And he was working in the Texas School Book Repository only temporarily while they were overlaying floors. They needed extra staff. He did not normally work in this building. And then this building would be like the will call counter and the offices for all the publishers on the second and third floor and the fourth floor. And then the will call counter. If they had smaller orders of one or two books, they would call in. They would place the order here. There was a dumb waiter on the second floor. They would put the order on the dumb waiter. It goes down to the shipping department, be picked up by the several workmen that filled orders like Oswald and Frasier and Char and some of the others. And then they would go through the building gathering up the books, bring them down the shipping floor, and then ship them out. give them to Troy Eugene West, a shipper, to ship them out, or they would take them up to the will call counter. They could also have people come in and pick up, but that’s about all the strangers would use coming into the building is that will call counter. There was not often that anyone strangers would be in the building, and they would be standing out like a sore thumb if they were in the building. Where the warehouse was, this is the view from the roof of the Texas School Book Depository, and it’s pointing back to the arrow where Frasier and Oswald parked that morning. So you can see kind of the distance. Um the little railroad cards here in the bottom right that is Ross Avenue which was under construction to go from the curve from Houston around to um Ross and that was under construction 63. I know James Files claims that you know he got in a car and they disappeared that way. Well that turn was under construction 63. So a lot of people weren’t doing it. And Houston Street between uh the Dowex and the schoolbook depository was like a parking lot. A lot of people just parked there because they knew no one would be back in the it wouldn’t be much of a thoroughare thoroughare. But right by that parking space behind it on the right of the arrow, you can see that’s the Texas warehouse over there. And that’s the other building where they do the bulk shipments. Like I said, Bonnie Ray Williams um worked on that building most of the time. And so that was the two two structures that they used to use and you can see it from the schoolbook depository and vice versa. But that’s where they walked. They came across these railroad tracks, walked up Houston and came in the back of the building that morning. So the interior of the building, this is the freight elevator. This is the eastern freight elevator. Now there’s a control panel there on the eastern freight elevator. I’m going to talk about these elevators a little bit. There were two elevators in a single shaft. So basically they shared the shaft. They went halfway back and then you can see on the far left there was a mesh screen in the back and you can see the other elevator on the other side of that mesh screen. It was not like a passenger elevator. It was pretty much a freight elevator and it had solid roof. You can see perforated steel up on top. It was like a steel box. So those of you have seen too many Bruce Willis Die Hard movies want to jump around inside elevator shafts. That does not work for these elevators. I’ve had some researchers say, “Yeah, well, they just repelled down the elevator shaft.” Well, if the elevator I guess if one elevator was on the fifth floor and the other one’s on the third floor, you could probably repel down the elevator shaft halfway, then go past the one elevator and then go back the other direction and finish repelling down the other half, but it’s very doubtful. This was the Eastern elevator. This one used to have a single button on it that went up or down. said up or down on it and you had to hold the button. It was a single wood slided gate on the every floor. The elevator itself does not have a gate. You don’t see one on the elevator. That gate that you can kind of see in the very right edge was a single gate on each floor. If the gate was not down and in position, the elevator would not move. But the eastern elevator was completely manual. The control panel you see on that elevator was moved there and put there when the Texas School Book Depository was converted into the museum. And this elevator is now on the sixth floor. And this is the eastern one. This the one you can see. But that panel was actually removed from the western side. And I do have photos of the interior of the western side. It looks just like this one except where the control panel used to be is just a bunch of wires now. So when they moved it, [clears throat] they moved the panel over just to make it look better. to the public walking by. The western elevator was completely automated elevator, but it was a double gate system. There was a gate on the elevator itself, wooden gate, and I think it went back and forth, sideways, and then there was a gate on each floor. Excuse me, I got those confused. The Yeah, that’s the way it was. And the gate on each floor, which is an up and down slatted wood with gaps in between it. And we’ll see that in a minute. And it was pretty much if both gates were closed, you would be able to call the elevator from any floor just like most elevators most of us are used to dealing with. And but both gates had to be closed for it to move. And we’ll get into that when we talk about the movements in the building in a minute. So this is kind of the elevators. Again, there was a little one little light bulb up on top. It was a pretty dark elevator and not well lit, but there’s one this particular photo, you can’t see it, but there at the far left upper corner. You can kind of see where the fixture is just based on where the light sha shining from. And I forgot what the sign said, but anyway. Um, and so these were the freight elevators. Let’s go to the next slide. This is the elevator shaft from the Alier film. And this is slide number or 11, elevator see-through. And so this is basically what the elevator shaft looked like when the elevators were not there. I believe this is the sixth floor. I could be mistaken. It’s taken from the area of um I think of the stairs and it’s pretty much looking right through the elevator. And again, slided side wood on the elevator. And this is double door, but these the only two doors here because they’re the ones on the floor. The other ones with the elevator, wherever the elevator is. And this is the way you could look see through the elevator. So, anyone using the elevator, sneaking in and out of the building or whatever you want to say, again, I if you want to have a conspiracy theory where other people snuck into the building and either set Oswald up or assisted Oswald or anything else, you do have the problem of getting them in and out of the building without being seen by any of the 73 employees who might report a stranger in the building. All 73 employees were talked to by the FBI in commission document 1381, which is the interview they did with all the employees in March and April. And I bring that up a couple times. And no one reported any strangers in the building except for Danny Archie Arche Ace, I pronounce it. Um, he did report a little old man who needed a restroom that came in about 12:05 1210 on the first floor. He showed him where the restroom was, waited, saw the little man leave and leave the building. That was the only stranger reported by any of the 72 employees interviewed by the FBI.

And okay, here’s the next slide, which is 12. You can see the elevator. This is the elevator. Again, it had a row of windows in there. So anyone repelling down the elevator shaft, if that’s what you want to believe, they would have to first of all access the elevator shaft, which would involve climbing over the gate and the repel up or down and hope they’re not being spotted by anyone walking by because it’s right there where anyone can walk by. And we’ll get into the layouts of the different floors in a couple minutes. So just be aware of that. I don’t mind if you have a theory that says other people snuck in the building, but you do have a problem in getting them in and out of the building without being spotted by anyone. And that’s can be a major logistical problem. Sure, there are gaps in time where we don’t have anyone using the elevators and anyone using the stairs, but how do you know when those gaps are going to be? How do you plan for that? It’s a logistics problem that you’ve got to work around before you’re planning to sneak into the building and do something. So, be aware of that. I just kind of mentioned it. The other way to access the other floors, all the floors in the building were the stairs. And this is slide 13. And this is looking from the rifle position down the six floor stairs to go down the five. These were one flight single flight stairs. Basically, you had to go up the stairs. You would go up the stairs along the north wall, which is the wall we’re not looking down, and then turn halfway and come up the stairs along the west wall, which is the wall we are looking down. And then you would have to cross the actual floor. So, anybody on that floor, anyone by it could see you crossing. It’s not like you could get back into a a stairwell, an enclosed stairwell, and go up and down. Now, a lot of the recreations they’ve done of Oswald’s movement I’ve seen done are on stairwells. And stairwells are just, you know, you walk up, you turn 180 degrees, you walk up the other half, and then you turn 180 degrees and keep going. But this would involve walking up the stairs and then crossing whatever is on that floor, the different levels of floor. If this is the sixth floor, and I think it is because this is the position of the rifle. Oswald’s clipboard was later found right there on this to the right of the elevator wall there. It was found kind of shoved between those boxes. And that was the week after the assassin or two weeks after the assassination because the school that had the order, there was two orders on the clipboard that Oswald had not filled that day. They called and said, “Where’s our books? We haven’t seen them.” So they tracked it down and they finally found Frankie Kaiser found the clipboard kind of stashed between some books there that day that Oswalt had been working on two orders. So that’s kind of on that in there the on the stairs. Here’s a close-up look of the stairs. This is number 14. And this close-up looking down the stairs. So you can see these are very loud, noisy stairs. They did have a handrail and old pipe and then they had wooden walls on the inside and brick walls on the other side. And they’re all wood stairs. So it would be very loud anyone going up and down the stairs and we talk about the girls in the stairs in a couple minutes. We’ll um discuss that a little bit. So this is the stairs kind of looking down to it. So we’re going to start with the first floor and we’re pretty much first floor was a shipping floor. It was an open floor and it pretty much had some shipping tables in the middle of it and this is where Troy Eugene West worked. And so the front entrance is going to be on the bottom of the screen here. And then there was a little lobby. And then as part of that lobby, there was a set of stairs that went up to the second floor only. Again, for those of you looking at your cell phone, it’s going to be hard to see. So I strongly suggest you watch this episode on your computer. Even then, it’s kind of tough, but these photos are all available online, all sorts of places, so it shouldn’t be any problem if anyone wants to find them. They shouldn’t be any problem finding it. There was also a passenger elevator there. When Roy Truly reorganized the first three floors, he put a passenger elevator in the building. And this passenger elevator that most the employees of the Texas Kuba company, other than the warehouse workers, would use most of the time. The freight elevators, they were certainly allowed to use them, and sometimes they even had to go up higher floors and check inventory or the stairs they were welcome to use, but most of them used the freight elevator. It was a very or pasture elevator. It was a very small elevator. It only went up to the fourth floor. So, you know, it’s right there in that lobby as well. Then there was another set of doors and then the will call counter right there at that location. This is shipping tables. So, this is the shipping table in the back. There was actually two tables back to back. You can kind of see one table here and then behind it where the other table is on top of it is another shipping table. You’ll notice there were rolls of paper on the shipping table and then there was a tape dispenser, a wet tape dispenser on the shipping table, but there was at least two of these shipping tables and they were kind of in the middle of the floor and this were Troy Eugene West. Now, people question about the paper bag that Oswald made for the rifle to take back to his room. I’m sorry, not his room, but to the Irving house. Could he have made it on this? Well, Troy Eugene West said, you know, he never saw Oswald around here, but Troy Eugene West was the only one that was pretty much stationed here all day, and he had to take breaks and go to restroom and so on so forth on occasion. So, Oswald could run up anytime. There was a roller like you can see on the bottom there in the center, paper. He could go up anytime, rip off some paper, get some tape off the dispenser, and probably make him a package with any problem. And I think the FBI, there was a big debate about whether or not the tape had gone through the dispenser and the Warren Commission. Everyone was kind of investigating what marks it would leave on this on the tape. And that would involve Oswald pulling wet tape. But if you look closely, you can see there on the right, extra tape down by the legs under the weighing machine there, right? And you can see extra tape. So Oswald could access extra tape anywhere. Um, all the shipping tables probably had rolls of a few feet of tape or the end of a roll or maybe a new roll. There’s also going to be storage locations. I think they used the freight building in the back, the dock building to store extra rolls of paper, extra rolls of tape. So, when they ran out on this roll, and this roll is getting pretty low, they would grab that extra roll and they had those stored elsewhere so they weren’t in the way of getting to the books, which is the main reason for the building. And you can actually see in the very background there on the far left, you can actually see uh Troy Eugene West, a shipper, walking through. He’s hard to see. He isn’t African-American, so he’s a little hard to see there, but he’s kind of walking back in the back corner there. Yeah. So, those are shipping tables. I just kind of wanted to mention that. Okay. So, let’s talk about the stairs, the bottom of the stairs in the first floor. And this is this is basically the shipping. This is where the FL elevator and stairs met in the back. So when Roy Truly and Baker came into the building, this is where they were standing is right there in that opening that you see because the elevators there on the right. That’s a wall. Again, the elevators were back to back, but their side was towards the front. So that was walled off. And that’s the wall of the elevators. You can see the roller for the elevator uh retraction gate up on top. And that was the elevator. So if anyone was coming down the stairs while they were waiting for the elevator, this is where they would come down the stairs and emerge. Again, this is the north wall. They did it does have a door, but a lot of times the doors were propped open. I know Vicky Adams talked with Mark Lane. Um she talked in ‘ 66, I think there was a live interview that’s online and she talked about those heavy wood doors, but if they were propped open, the doors would not be a factor in her movements. And we’ll get to her movements in a couple minutes. Okay, so we’re going to go to the second floor now. I’m [snorts] going to kind of talk about that briefly. This is the second floor. It was pretty much office spaces. This is where most of the secretaries for the Texas School Book Company worked. This is where, you know, there was restrooms across across the left and then there was office spaces or throughout this floor. There was a conference room and then right there in the middle center, it was the lunchroom. And those circled photos is the different photo numbers that the FBI put in their report. So they go into the lunchroom. There is a uh small dumb waiter right [snorts] there kind of towards the oh let’s say two o’clock position and kind [clears throat] of before you get to the wall that goes the lunchroom. That was a dumb waiter. And that again, that’s where they would put the orders and drop it in the dumb in dumb loader and lower it down to the floor and where the order fillers would then fill it up and pick it up and take it, go fill the orders and then bring it to the shipping floor to be shipped out and then they’d send a copy back up and it would get filed and processed and etc. And so this is pretty much the second floor and the layout of this is where the secretaries worked. This is where Mrs. Robert Reid worked. This is where other secretaries worked. This is where most of the secretaries worked. The lunchroom here on the second floor is pretty much where most of the um regular employees of the tech school company had lunch. The office employees, specifically the women more often than not. The men’s floor, and if we can go back a little bit briefly to number 15, uh a couple slides back had a domino room. It’s in the upper upper right where it says Houston Street Dock, right? That room right there to the right is the Domino room. And it was basically another lunchroom and it was a very small lunchroom. It was pretty much where the warehouse workers ate their lunch. They would also store in that window their coats and jackets. They would store their lunch. Um there’s also toilet back there in the very back center right. There was couple toilets. I don’t know if there was a girl’s toilet, a men’s toilet. Could have been both. I don’t know. But there was a toilet. So when Danny RC let the gentleman in from the front to use a to public toilet, that’s the one he probably appointed him to because it was a closest to the front of the building. We wouldn’t have to go up to the second floor where the main toilets were. But this is where the guys would play dominoes during the day or during their breaks, lunch, morning. Uh Hank Norman and Junior Garmin did most of the domino playing, I understand, but there’s only a couple tables in there. So, one of the questions I got at one point several years ago, I think it was the 40th 50th anniversary, one of the two. I had a debate on there was a stage production called um Oswald Talk. Not Oswald Talk, Oswalt, the Interrogation, and it was done at Kasa Mñano over in Fort Worth. That’s their major stage play, stage production play theater. And they arranged for me and Robert Groden to have a debate. Robert Groen taking the conspiracy side and me taking the lone nut side, even though I’m fed sitter. Um, I originally wanted to do Hugh Ainsworth, but I realized soon you shouldn’t get Hugh Ainssworth and Robert in the same room together. So, I backed off of that idea. Um, so I went ahead and took the lone nut. Well, we there was question and answer after the debate, brief debate. It was basically question answer for the most part. And I did the old, you know, there’s no hard evidence. And Robert, that was actually the first day his book um Absolute Proof was available. So he was selling a lot of books afterwards in the lobby, but we had a debate and I noticed Jim Mars sitting down up front and he raised his hand for question, but the moderator didn’t notice him and I didn’t notice him until, you know, I didn’t get her attention before she ended it. So I ran into Jim Mars who who we knew each other. I know all the conspira or all the researchers for the most part, right? And we knew each other and I met him next week at the JFK conference and I said, “Well, what was it you were about to ask when you raised your hand?” And he asked what I always call the Jim Mars question and the psychic Oswald question. And the question was basically Oswald allegedly said that Junior Gar, one of a couple of the black guys were in the domino room when he was having lunch that day. And they walked through is what he said. And they said, I’m not sure his exact name. They call him Junior, I think. And the question was, well, how would they know that he did that if he wasn’t in there? So his alibi, how would he know about it? Well, the answer to that question is this was the 24th day that Oswwell worked in this building. These guys would go into that room almost every day and play dominoes. If nothing else, they’d wash up at the restrooms and go in and get their jacket or get their lunch out the window. There’s all sorts of reasons to know that these guys are going to walk through that lunchroom. That’s not much of an alibi if you think about it because there’s lots of reasons that someone knows. So, it’s wasn’t that he was psychic because and I’ve had people ask me that question that way. Well, you know, he either was there to know it or he was psychic. Well, no, he was just experienced. That was would have been his 24th day of work. He had started there five weeks before miss Veterans Day. Everyone did. And so, that would have been his 24th day of work. He was completely familiar with everyone’s pattern. And he could have heard Junior Gar even say, “Well, I’ve got my lunch in the window or I’ve got my lunch down in the domino room, so that’s I’m going to go grab it or something.” Because he was working around these guys all morning. wasn’t working with them because they were busy doing other things, but he could have um heard that way. So, there’s lots of ways for him to know that that has nothing to do with being psychic. So, in addition to the uh domino room thing that was the kind of an alibi written in Fritz’s notes. We don’t have a recording of the Fritz interrogation, but we do have his notes. And one of the things in the notes is that he said, “Junior German walked through the room.” And you know that’s because he pretty much knew. The other one that was in the notes and it’s kind of an alibi is he said he was out front with Bill Shel. Well again it’s not necessarily psychic just because he either had to be there or he’s psychic. He could have overheard Bill Shel you know they were discussing where were they going watch the motorcade that morning. He could have heard heard Bill Shelly say downstairs in front. I want to be as close as possible or something. Right. So that’s not much of an alibi either. And those are the only two alibis he actually mentioned um regarding during the Wilfrit’s notes. Of course, we don’t have a recording of exactly what was said because real Will Fritz didn’t use a tape recorder, right? And those are two alibis that normally come up, right? And what about Carolyn Arnold? Oh, yeah. Carolyn Arnold basically she had three statements. She had one statement. As a matter of fact, she’s the only Texas School Book Depository employee to do a statement on Tuesday the 26th of November. So, apparently she thought someone thought was important enough to talk to her. And in that FBI statement, she basically said that she might have she was out front and she might have looked back and caught a glimpse of Oswald by the front doors. Now, there were 12 different employees in the front door and none of them said they saw Oswald that day. Right. So that’s here or there. I mean, there’s a discussion now about prayer man and all the rest of it that basically says, you know, that’s Oswald, but none of the 12 people in that front porch saw Oswald that day and definitely not during the Well, they may have seen that day working that morning. It didn’t seem during the shooting. So, it’s not apparent that he was on the front porch. Um the her second statement in commission document 1381 in March and April of 64, she said she did not see Oswald at all that day. Now these are two sworn statements to the FBI subject to perjury. So it is illegal to lie to the FBI these statements and supposedly notorized and all the rest of it. But finally in 1978 there was a newspaper article in the Dallas Morning News by newsman Earl Goultz and he basically said that he talked to Arnold and Arnold said, “Oh, I’m surprised what my FBI statements were. I saw Oswald in the second floor lunchroom about 12:25.” And in the movie JFK, they actually have him test her testifying at the Clay Shaw trial. Well, she never testified in the Clay Shaw trial, right? The first time she made that statement was 70 1978. This is, you know, 15 years later and it was sensational information. Earl Bolts wrote the other article and I I’ll send you a copy of it so you can put it up if you want. Sure. Yeah. And um wrote that article and we’re supposed to believe again secondhand information. Earl Gulz, the reporter said she said this. We never heard from Carolyn Arnold directly herself. The first two statements were FBI statements and subject to perjury. The last one 15 years later and it’s completely different statement. So some of the people believe some of the researchers that Oswald was in the second floor run the entire time, but there’s no strong evidence of that. Just some witness statement 70 15 years later, right? And so that’s not much of an alibi, but that’s the alibi I hear most often. Again, even if Oswald was in the second floor the entire time, we still have the problem of how does your shooter or anyone planning a weapon or anything else get in and out of the building without being seen by any of the employees? The movements, again, the elevator was open at certain times, but there were movements in the building. No one ever saw Oswald. Right. Right. Yeah. Very good point. Very Yeah, absolutely. Very, very interesting. So, we’re going to move back into the lunchroom again. So, I’m This is the view from the stairs looking at the lunchroom door. And again, there’s a little vegetable door that went into the hallway. If you went right down the hallway, you would end up going down into the secretar’s area. If you went left into the hallway, there’s another door going into the lunchroom itself. Second floor layout. Okay. And so, this is the lunchroom. Now, in the movie JFK, and I’ll bring it up a couple times, JFK, they said they had Oswald, they showed a picture of Oswald standing in this doorway waiting for a phone call, that he was just an unknowing psy and he was in this lunchroom. And waiting for a phone call was his reason for being a lunchroom. If if you’re going to set up Oswall as a psy, let’s play what if for a second. You have three problems. Number one, you got to get yourself your people in and out, your shooters or planting weapons, whatever they’re doing, in and out of the building without being seen as strangers by any of the 72 employees that could have been anywhere in the building at any given moment. Number one problem. Number two, you’ve got to not be seen as strangers by Oswald, who’s the pathy. If he somehow sees a stranger in the building, he might suspect he’s being set up and then establish an alibi or even turn to somebody and say, “Who’s that guy?” [clears throat] The third problem, of course, is you’ve got to control Oswalt. Well, in the movie JFK, they’re controlling Oswalt by making him wait for a phone call as if they could just tell, “Well, why don’t you stand in the lunchroom and wait for a phone telephone call?” Well, there was no pay phone in the lunchroom. There were no phones in the lunchroom. And I’ve got pictures both sides of the lunchroom, both ends. And there were no pictures in this lunchroom or phones in this lunchroom at all. Pay phones were expensive in ‘ 63. You didn’t put them in a low traffic area at all. Um, so if Oswald’s waiting for a phone call, it would have to be an outside phone, maybe at Mrs. Robert Reed’s desk, which would be the closest desk to the lunchroom in the back of the thing. Well, he didn’t know that number. So it would if you’re setting up Oswald by making him wait for a phone call on that phone, he might get suspicious. Why am I waiting for this phone? First of all, you would have to know the number to call it. And secondly, well, why are you making me call on that phone? This is the layout of the first floor again. Now, it’s the opposite of what it was before. So, at this point, the main entrance, the upper left, and the stairs are in the lower right. It was the other way around, the other side, but this was the Frasier exhibit. And he talks about where that phone is. and it’s marked A in the center of this. So B is the small storage room and C is the domino room and this photo and that is the phone that Oswald and the warehouse workers used. So that’s the phone Oswald would know the number to. So if he’s going to wait for a phone call and you don’t want to raise suspicion, then you’ve got to have him waiting there for a phone call. Well, also at this location, Oswell can see anybody entering the building, whether it’s from the back door by the dock, the side door, you know, back on the west side or the front door. If they’re walking through this open area, because it is completely open area except for the shipping tables and columns, there were 6×6 support columns in the middle of every floor. Um, then he would be able to see anybody walking in and out of the building. So, you’ve got to be aware of that when you talk about sneaking someone into the building, either co-conspirators or maybe Oswald even helped them into the building. But again, you still run the risk of being seen by any of the 72 employees in the building. All of which stated in commission document 1381, they did not see any strangers in the building at all except for Danny RC, how he pronounced. Yeah. So that’s just what you kind of have to be used to or what you have to think through is the logistics. And a lot of people don’t go through the logistics. The conspiracy theorists say, “Well, it was Mac Wallace on this floor or Mac, you know, or someone else on this floor or they just planted rifle on this floor.” Well, you got to think about the logistics problem. You can’t just plan an episode like that. I mean, I’ve seen Mission Impossible, too. I know anything’s possible, but still, it’s it’s doubtful. It’s not something, you know, that it’s just easily done. We just say, “Well, he must have been there.” Now, again, I’ve talked to some some people that believe every one of the employees of Texas School Book Depository ran out. Um, some of them believe because David Harold Bird, DH Bird is what he used to go by. The Dallas Petroleum Club used to teach teasing that DH stood for dry hole. But David Bird was part of the petroleum club and he was extreme rightwing. He did not like Kennedy. And so some people think, well, he was in on it and all the employees of the building were lying and all the employees of the building, you know, why why would they be lying? It’s just kind of weird because some people go off the deep end and just go really crazy with that. So, we’re not going to talk about them too much. I’m going to go to the third floor just to show that it’s basically all offices. What we’re while we’re at it, I’ll show you the basement. There was a set of stairs in the middle of the basement or you can sign bottom center that came down to the first floor. And if you look at the first floor layout, you will see the stairs coming down was the basement. It doesn’t really figure in this whole lot, but the elevators, freight elevators did go to the basement and that was pretty much it. The little box on the right, bottom right there is basically where the passenger elevator landed. So that’s what that box is. But the basement doesn’t do a whole lot for the uh story, so we won’t spend much time on it or the third floor. Jack Kase’s wife wrote a book, and in that book, she does have the inside of Jack Kase’s office, which was the second floor, but we don’t really have any pictures the inside of the third floor or the fourth floor. So, I’m going to kind of just skip past them, just include them so it doesn’t feel like I’m leaving anything out. So, we’re going to talk next about the sniper nest and the view from the window. So, this is the view from down Houston Street. And I’ve [snorts] had a lot of people when I give tours and I think in the movie JFK they have the actor who plays Lou Ivonne I believe um talking to the actor for Jim Garrison and it says well the only reason for not shooting him while he’s approaching on Houston Street which he calls an easy shot is to get him in a crossfire. Well that’s a reason. I’m not sure it’s the only reason. First of all Oswald is not professional sniper. I mean, if you got have a sniper like uh Craig Roberts, who wrote a couple different books on the Oswalt shooting and I’ve talked to in the past, Medusa Files and a couple others, another one, and he basically could possibly shoot the president of United States with his wife sitting right next to him while they’re looking at him. But it’s not sure that Oswald had that much nerve to do that. Um, again, Oswald has never shot anybody. He accidentally shot himself in the Marines with a daringer, but he’s not actually shot anybody that we know of during his military service or any other time, even [snorts] though he had been trained in the Marines to some degree. So, it’s not the easy shot that some people want to think it is. But yeah, if you did shoot at Kennedy coming at you, you would have and you missed, you still had a chance to shoot again instead of him moving straight away from you. Although although you do have uh all the Secret Service coming right at you. Yes. So, and that’s the other thing is he may have even intended to shoot down Houston Street, but the alignment of the boxes he was using as a gun rest and we’ll look at that in a second don’t seem to indicate that because they were at an angle and you could also hide behind that. And that’s the third problem. The third reason for not shooting on Houston Street, you got to remember this is not only have Secret Service, it has police, it has about 350 of the public standing on both sides of that road. They’re all watching the limo. So if you shoot from here and raise attention, everyone’s going to be looking at the building. If you wait till they turn the corner, they’re not going to be quite as certain where the shots came from because of the echo in Dly Plaza, etc. So, I’m not sure exactly what Oswald’s shooting sniper training was in the military in the Marines, but I’m pretty sure, you know, he it’s not that easy a shot. And also, if you’re trying to get away, then you have to worry about all those people, all those police officers, all the Secret Service looking right at you when you take a shot. So, instead, next slide, he took a shot down this angle. And this is pretty much the angle moving away from you. And again, the limo, but this time is going straight away from you. It’s not a hard shot. Talking about Craig Roberts is he basically said when they were sniper in Vietnam, they had a problem. And whenever they shot from a high position to a low, they couldn’t understand why the bullet went lower than where they were aiming. The scope is a line on a flat plane looking flat. And you actually shoot above where you’re looking so that it can arc with gravity down a little bit. It doesn’t move a whole lot. based on the speed of the bullet, but it does arc. So most weapons are sighted in on a flat plane, flat trajectory. And so by the time they hit their target, they the arc is minimal depending on how far away it is. If you’re going to shoot farther away, you actually lifted your well adjusted your scope or in the old thing lifted a a metal sight where you would shoot higher at the butt of the rifle, which means the front tip was pointing more upward because it would be more arc. So, anyone shooting high to low, they have a tendency not to to hit. They always hit below where they’re shooting because the rifle is sighted in with the scope and even your normal sights at a flat trajectory. and if shooting high to low, gravity’s not affecting the bullet at all. So you have a tendency to shoot higher than what you’re aiming. So in this case, he may have missed and hit Connelly instead. So I just kind of mentioned all that in passing. So that’s pretty much the views going out the window. So we’re going to talk about the sixth floor a little bit more now. And it’s pretty much down again the same trajectory looking a little bit closer to the window. Those dots are all the impacts reported select committee on assassinations that I mentioned before. I just include this one again. And you can see the round circle matches the circle in the Warren report where they shot through a telescope or phone through a telescope. And you see so the car would pretty much match what that circle shows. And so these are the missed impacts reported to the out house select committee on assassinations. Again, evidence of other shooters if more than two of them happened. Again, not strong evidence. It’s just 15 13 years later reports the House Select Committee on Assassination got it. But it is evidence as weak as it is. So kind of going to the next one. We’re going to talk about the sixth floor itself. Again, there were serious posts throughout this building. It was all warehouse space. The front uh the fourth floor, the back of the fourth floor, the fifth floor, and the sixth floor were all warehouse space. It’s pretty much storage space. And this particular thing, the stairs are in the back upper left and the two freight elevators. And then the sniper’s nest was in the front corner in that front window, the alleged sniper sniper nest. And so this is looking east or down the south wall. This is the front. These windows are all the front windows of the Texas School Book sixth floor. And this is looking down that front wall. And they had moved the boxes away from the windows because it would rain occasionally. They didn’t want them to get wet. and they were working on overlaying the plywood floors with wood or plywood the floors with plywood. They were not changing the floors, they were overlaying. So, real quick, let me talk about the floors. There was a work crew that was working on the floors and they were all employees in the movie JFK. Once again, they kind of cheat. They let actually Jerry Patrick Heming who was a soldier fortune that did with the anti-Castro Cubans and he pretty much played a guy in the movie where the work crew coming in from outside and he’s walks up to the sniper nest and he’s unpackaging a rifle in that brief shot of him. He doesn’t have any dialogue, but that’s actually Jerry Patrick Hamming for those of you who watch JFK just so you know that. But this is away from the windows and they did not have an outside work crew. There were six employees working crew. So the pretty much the employees were Harold Norman Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams, Bill Shelley, Bill was a supervisor, Bill Lovely, the other two individuals, Danny Arc and Charles Given. Those were the six employees that were overlaying the floor. There was no outside crew. Again, 72 employees. No one talked about the employees in the building. So, this is the Now, the far end of this, it’s really hard to see here, and I do have close-up pictures of it, is a two-he cart on the far end away from us. And the two wheel cart was where Bonnie Ray Williams pretty much sat and had his lunch when he came up on the floor. He had been working the work crew. They raced the floor, the elevators down to the bottom floor. They went to the restroom, cleaned up because they’ve been working dusty and so on and so forth. And that was about no a few minutes before 12 about 10 till 12 something like that. And Charles Given the only one who came back up because he had after he cleaned up and stuff he came out back about 12:05. We’re starting to get into the movements in the building and he pretty much took the elevator back up and he came back to get his cigarettes. So let’s let’s keep working on the 64 and then we’ll come back to that. This is the sniper nest from a couple rows over again. Number 28 28 and this is sniper nest from a couple rows over. This is from the second row over and you can see the sniper west off in the distance. A lot of people forget about the little al cove over there with the pipe where Oswell could hide around the side. And I know on last week’s episode you showed an overhead shot of it. So if you want to show that one that’s fine, too. But I just include this so you can kind of see it um from a distance. There was a stack of boxes in front of the sniper nest. So much that you could not get through the sniper nest from the west side, which is the side we’re shooting this from, or this photo is taken from. You had to go around the east side around the boxes to get into the sniper nest. But this is it from the middle of the floor kind of looking at there was a little area over there in the corner Roswell could kind of hide from view if he wasn’t squared up in the window taking the shot on Houston Street. So that’s the reason I included it here. This is kind of the overview overhead view of it. So he was sitting on that box right there in the corner or towards the corner behind that stack of boxes and then he used these boxes as a rest and that’s also where the paper bag was allegedly found. They never really took a picture of the paper bag in this area but this is pretty much where that was done from and where slide 28T I believe. Yeah. But you could not actually enter the sniper nest except from that side, that far side. And that’s the east side there up top of the screen. And you could not enter from the west side because the row of boxes there were full. So I’m kind of including the boxes. This is the bo row of boxes according to the palace police before Studebaker moved some. So there’s a whole row of boxes blocking the access and there were stacks of boxes there. And then on the left you had to go around that stack. It was actually kind of a double wall that you had to kind of walk in from the west side and then zigzag to get back into the sniper nest. So those are the boxes the way they originally configured and originally appeared. And this was slide 29. And so from 30 you can see this is one of the photos taken by Studebaker in of the sniper nest when he got done processing it. Now, it was not taken when the sniper’s nest was first found. So, we’re gonna get into Tom Aier a little bit here. Tom Aier was the film photographer that got into the building before the police sealed it off. The police sealed off the building by about 1238 according to DV Hartness, one of the police officers in in part of it, in charge of it. And so, Tomier got into the building before that. And if you ever see black and white film of them searching the building and them finding the rifle and day brushing the rifle off, that’s Tom Alier’s film. Now Tom had some problems. He uh was using a borrowed camera. He had been in Fort Worth that morning. His camera was acting up. So he went to a stringer. Camera guy is not necessarily employed by the newspaper. They’re kind of freelance and that’s what they used to call stringer. He went to a stringer over in Fort Worth that he knew and borrowed a camera. So he had the camera with him when the [clears throat] when the sniper’s nest was first found by Luke Mooney at about 105. He asked Fritz. Now um said he could look over into the sniper nest and you could see the three shells on the ground all close together where you can lay hand and cover all three. Now, according to Oay, he asked Fritz, who was with him, if he could go into the sniper nest and film the the position of the bullets and so on so forth. Fritz said, “No, you shouldn’t be back there, but I tell you what, why don’t you reach over and film over the boxes? Film straight down.” Well, he did that. And so Fritz thinking he had photos of and this is all according to Oy and I can’t verify he passed away in 2014 but he said Fritz then reached down and grabbed the shells and showed him in his palm of his hand the three shells casings so that all could film them. All then said Fritz threw the shells in his pocket. Now, this surprised a lot of people, but it’s very seldom you find fingerprints on shells. Shell casings, most of the fingerprints come from the oil in the hands or dirt and oil. And if a shell casing heats up enough to explode the bullet, they will burn off the fingerprints. So, very seldom will you find shell casings with fingerprint. And so, this is all according to Alier. Now, Oier had two additional problems. Number one, it was dark in the depository. It didn’t have a flash. He didn’t have a light fixture with him and so we’re not sure if the pictures ever turned up. Secondly, he was losing the loop in his camera. Every once in a while he had to go find a dark place, open the camera up and re, you know, reloop it, tighten the loop a little bit. So where it went around the sprocket, it used to jump. And if you ever see that film, you see it start to jump a little bit. That’s because he was losing his loop. Third, he did not get out of the depository himself to process the film. He threw the film out to a co-orker standing in front of the building and they took a WFAA television and processed or souped the film. And so a lot of his film ended up on the cutting room floor. We don’t know what’s on it. The guy processing the film didn’t know what’s on it. So a picture of Hier’s film of him showing the sniper nest position of the bullets never showed up. nor did any film or picture of Fritz holding his hand out for the sniper nest for the showcase for all to film again. He kept filming through the building until he filmed it and he threw it back out. Now all you know he was writing a book at one point and I was helping him edit it. He has been published at least once. Connie Kitsburg put out a book called Secrets of the Sixth Floor and Oier wrote a chapter in that and I’m not sure if you have the book or not but um it’s a rare book. It’s all paper. It’s not easy to find. He was published but he was publishing a book or writing of a book and I was helping him edit it but then he got bored with it and stopped returning my emails and so the book never got printed. I do have PDF copies of the book, but I’ve never had permission from the family and never even contact the family to release it. So, I’ve not done anything with it. But just to make you aware, he was writing a book at one point. He says that that Studebaker, he who he didn’t have much use for. Then when he came in with Lieutenant Carl Day and they found the rifle um back on the other corner, opposite corner, they he took pictures of the rifle in place and then Oier took film of the rifle being picked up by Carl Day and Fritz and they’re examining the rifle and all the rest of that and it’s on his film and then he says Fritz or Yeah. Fritz then turned to Studebaker, the rookie in the crime lab. He was a sergeant, so he wasn’t a complete rookie, but he was in the crime lab. He handed the Michelle’s and said, “Go process the sniper nest.” And so Studebaker came over and pro started processing the sniper nest. Now, we get into Roger Craig here. Roger Craig at one point said that he walked over the sniper nest while Studebaker was processing it and he found saw all three shell casings laying in a row in the window seal. Well, that kind of makes sense. If you’re Studebaker, you’re not going to be tripping around shell casings on the floor while you’re processing a sniper lab. So, he would lay them on the window sill until he was ready to do something with put them in an evidence bag or whatever he was going to do. So, it’s not surprising. Now, according to Oier, Studebaker then moved one row of books. And again, the previous picture, we pretty much showed the row of the books. I can go back that if anybody wants to see it, but you could not get in that bottom corner, right? That bottom picture, you could not get in from that side. But this next picture again that we’re looking at, you can see in that side. And you can So Studebaker had moved some stacks of books out of the way to take this picture. And and you can also see fingerprint dust on this on these books, these boxes. So yes, it’s been processed. And according to Oay, Fritz came back over and said, “Did you take a picture yet?” And Studebaker said, “No, I I haven’t.” And so Fritz threw the shell casings on the floor and said, “Take your pictures.” And so Studebaker took pictures, but the shell casings on the floor were not in that position according to. So take that for whatever it’s worth. I just kind of include in here. Right. Now, the sniper’s nest was found about 10:05 and then about 1:30 or so, the rifle was found. So, Studebaker was processing the sniper nest up until about 2:00. A little maybe a little bit after he was fingerprinting, moving boxes, dusting for fingerprints, etc. And you can see him from the outside, some of the photos taken outside, you can see him processing the sniper. You can see Studebaker a few times in these windows. We don’t know for sure because back in those days, these pictures did not have timestamps. However, if you look out the window here, you can see a station wagon. And I don’t know if it’s a new station wagon or an ambulance or what it was, but I think it was a new station wagon. And the station wagon is facing on Houston Street towards the north. So again, Elm Street and Houston Street, Elm Street Extension and Houston Street are squared up. They’re 90 degrees from each other. So what I did is I did a study on shadows. This is basically old style, but this is old style like uh sundial type of study. So you can kind of see using the square truck you can see that there’s about 60° is really we know that truck is square or rectangular. So the blue line shows where 90° should be, but this because of perspective it shows up as 60°. So if you take those same degree marks and move them over on that station wagon, the shadow is about halfway from 90 degrees. So that shadow which looks like 30° right now if you assume you know the because of perspective it’s going to be a sharper angle is 30 degrees. Well, I did a time study in Dy Plaza where I brought protractors and you know a little rod to kind cast a shadow and measured all the shadows. This photo was appears to have been taken about 12:10 in the afternoon or 2:10, excuse me, 2:10. So again, it kind of supports this idea that Studebaker took this picture after he processed the sniper nest and moved some boxes and it was late, not originally a picture of exactly when Studebaker or when the crime scene was first discovered. Any any questions on that at all? No, I’ve been droning on for an hour. Yeah, it’s not quite an hour, but okay. So, now we’re going to kind of move a little bit and just for the heck of it, I’m gonna show the diagram of the seventh floor. I’ve had like Lamar Lamar Waldron suggest that maybe they hid up in the seventh floor. This is basically a diagram of the seventh floor. Yeah. And there was a little store room in the front. Again, it was used for excess storage. There wasn’t a lot going on up there and there wasn’t anything that really fits in the action, but I included just to make sure I include everything in our discussion. And this is picture number 31 for those of you keeping track and trying to keep up. And I’ve got a couple pictures of the interior of the seventh floor so you can kind of see what they were like. Um, this next one, 32, is basically what it was like back in the time. You can see it has a fairly low ceiling. There was actually a crawl space up above that ceiling and There was a police officer as always I always kind of tease him. His name was Paul Wilkins and they made him crawl through that crawl space with a flashlight looking for shooter. According to Oay the police officers, which we’ll get into in a second, kind of did the building in two waves. The first wave looking for the shooter. Of course, they rushed to the building looking for a shooter. Of course, Baker came up and looked for the shooter and went all the way to the roof and then they came back down and got organized and then kind of walked through the building looking for evidence and that’s when they discovered the sniper’s nest and the rifle. Okay, so next photo real quick. This is the seventh floor. This is that front corner room. This is number 33 for those of us keeping track. And this is kind of this crawl space was not in the front of the building, this office space. Um, so it’s no longer there. So the windows, you can see go a little bit higher all up the ceiling. And so a few years ago, I had uh the oral historian Steven Fagan let me take a picture of the seventh floor. And you can see these cross beams across the top. That’s where the crawl space used to be. And you can actually see Steven in the bottom right left corner. and he’s 5 foot five or 5 foot six I believe and he’s standing under that crawl space. So there was a crawl space up there and they pretty much look for shooters through there. So we’re going to kind of go through the rest of um the building. We’re going to talk about the fifth floor. We’re going to get into the movements of the employees. Now the movements of the employees are based on three things. Basically the warrant commission interviews of each of the employee also commission document 1381 where the employees were asked in March and April of 64 you know all the five questions who are you where you work so on so forth where were you at the time of the shooting did you see Oswald that morning did you see any strangers in the building and what time did you leave those five questions the first group we’re going to talk about are the three workers that were on the fifth floor. This is Bonnie Ray Williams, Junior Garman, Harold Norman or Hank Norman. And so we’re going to kind of talk about that. They were in the windows in the front of the building, which is the bottom of the building. Here you can also see the control of the lift mechanism for the elevator, the passenger elevator that went on only up to the fourth floor. Oh, the other document a lot of this is based on is the police reports to Captain Galloway and also the police reports for the sheriff’s, Sheriff Decker. Um, that’s commission exhibit 5323 if you ever want to read all the police reports. So, this is the fifth floor. We’re going to talk talk a little bit about the movement of the elevators and the movement of the employees in the building based on those three sources. The first one we’re going to do is we’re going to talk about the guys in the fifth floor. Uh, Junior Garman, Hank Norman, and Bonnie Ray Williams went down the lunchroom, you know, a little bit before noon, pretty much grabbed their lunch or grabbed their sandwiches or whatever. Bonnie Ray Williams went back up to the sixth floor because then in the conversation that morning, they kind of had said, “Well, this would be a good place to watch the motorcade or the parade go by.” And so, Bonnie Ray Williams came back up the sixth floor and he pretty much ate his chicken bone sandwich and had his Dr. Pepper. Um, and he sat there and ate his lunch. He got back up there about 12:05, 12:10. And he sat and ate his lunch till about 12:25 when he went looking for Hank Norman and Junior Dar. The two of them went down out front and they were out front in front of the building, but they heard on the police radio that motorc was coming down Main Street. So, they decided to go back into the building. They went around to the dock entrance and then went back into the building and went up to the fifth floor. So when Bonnie Ray Williams came down, he searched the fifth floor and he found them. And so both elevators were pretty much on the fifth floor when the shooting occurred, just pretty much stuck on the fifth floor. Two of the guys coming up, one of them going down. The other one I mentioned very briefly was Charles Given. Charles Given also went down with the sixman lane crew a little bit before 12. Came back up to 12:05 because he had forgotten his cigarettes and his coat, his jacket. It was warmer in the afternoon than had been that morning. So, he’s got his cigarettes. He saw Oswald coming from the front corner of the building. And he kind of asked him, well, you know, are you going to lunch? Oswald said maybe down in a minute. So, he was coming from the sniper nest area according to Charles Given. And Oswald basically said, “Well, when you get down there, make sure the elevator doors are closed so I can call the elevator when I want to come down.” And Charles Given took the elevator. We’re assuming it’s the east elevator, the manual one, and went down to the first floor. And he walked around and looked at the elevator and all this is 12:05, 1210. The elevator was gone. So, it could be that Bonnie Ray Williams went back up to the sixth floor to eat his lunch at 12:10. We’re not sure the exact time. He probably sat there for 15 minutes with Oswald just on the other side of the wall from him waiting to do the shoot or the shooter if you prefer to think it’s not Oswald. Again, I don’t care. Um, so the fifth floor, then they came up to the fifth floor. Now, again, this is the back of the fifth floor. Now, some people ask Jack Dhy. I almost skipped over Jack. Jack went back to work about 12:30 about. He’s not sure exactly the time. and he was filling an order and he came up and he filled the order on the fifth floor or sixth floor. He couldn’t remember which, but he was probably filling an order. He said he was standing a few feet from the elevator when he heard a backfire, a single backfire sound. So, he only heard one shot. For some reason, he thought it sound like a backfire. Of course, it was in the building, but he heard a backfire. So, he finished filling his orders and he went on downstairs to see what’s happening. Um, this is a picture from the west side. The three guys after the shooting, this is 36. 36. So, this is 36. This is looking along the west side. Anyway, the three guys moved to the west corner of the building, the southwest corner of the building, looked out the side window. Uh, Junior Garman and Hank Norman closer to the window. Bonnie Ray Williams was kind of standing back a little bit. Bonnie Ray Williams did not see Oswalt. He did not see anyone moving up down the stairs, but he did see eventually Baker and Truly cross the stairs and go to the elevator. Well, that window you see all the way back in the background is the ele or the window between the stairs and the elevator. And you can see the view of the stairs is blocked by stacks of box boxes of books. So, it makes sense that Jack Jordy wouldn’t necessarily see somebody walking on the stairs or running down the stairs because that stack of boxes would be blocking his view or could be blocking his view. And you can actually see Bonnie Ray Williams in silhouette in that window because at the time this was taken. And again, this number um that’s where he was standing. Those were the three guys were standing. And you can see that stack of boxes on the far left which would have blocked the view of the stairs. So anyone coming down those stairs from six and then crossing over to the left behind that wall would not be seen by the boxes in that area. So that’s the reason Jack Dohy and Bonnie Ray Williams did not see Oswald move. Okay. So we’re going to go to the fourth floor now. We’re going to talk about the women and the girls on the stairs. Um this is Sandra Styles and Vicky Adams were at the front of the stairs. the second set of windows over over at the front of the building. Watching that’s the bottom here and they were in the office section. The fourth floor was unique because it had storage in the back on the warehouse storage and then supplies over in the far left in this picture and then it had offices for Scott’s foreman employees. So they’re that publishers’s office is up there and Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles were working for Scott Foreman and they were also joined by Elsie Dorman and Dorothy Gardner. Elsie Dorman took the Dorman film which you can see inside the building and she did not look through the shutter. It’s one of the worst films taken because it’s all too high to see the present limo. Also in the rest of the building, in the front of the building, there was also the employees Foster Holly’s Hobson and Ruth Smith Nelson. And there were the eight women on the front of the fourth floor [clears throat] right after the shooting. Um, and the girl in the stairs, again, a book by uh Barry Ernest, he talks about the movement of these girls. So, we’re going to talk about briefly. So, we’re going to go here. This is Vicky Adams testimony. And Vicky Adams is asked about three times here. The first one is, “How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start towards the stairway?” And the response is underlined there between 15 and 30 seconds estimated approximately. And then she was asked, it’s kind of crossed out there, I can’t quite read it. How long do you think it make it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs? She answers, “I don’t think I can answer that question accurately because the time approximation without a stopwatch would be difficult.” And we’re not sure what path she took. And we’ll go back to the drawing in just a second. But this is her testimony. And this is number 39 for those of you keeping track. And then the Mr. repeats it again and this time he says window. Now he had just asked about how long it took you to decide to move. And then the second question he actually changed it back and said um second question he said how long to get from the window to the stairs. And then he comes back with from the window down to the first floor. Well she may not caught the window on that particular side of the question. So she said I would say no longer than a minute at the most. But then he repeats the question. So you think it took you go from the window on the fourth floor and the time you got to the stairs the bottom of the first floor was approximately 1 minute. Now she comes back and says yes approximately. It’s no longer less than a minute but it’s yes approximately. So many researchers very much only used one time and they say well it only took her a minute from the head shot all the way down the bottom of the stairs. Well, I don’t buy that. On the and this is page 281 of volume six of the Warren Commission. Okay. And the page before she actually said she was in three-inch heels, her and Sandra Styles both. Well, you can imagine the noise made by 3-in heels on those wooden stairs with wooden walls as they’re going down. There’s two of them, and they’re not trying to walk quietly. They have no reason to walk quietly. And she did tell Barry Ernest, according to his book, that she thinks she would have at least heard Oswell moving. But if Oswald was ahead of her, I have my doubt she would hear it. They came down the bottom of the stairs. They probably crossed paths with Baker and Truly. They never saw Baker and Truly. They never saw Oswalt. They didn’t see anybody on the stairs. and Elsie Dorman, I’m sorry, Dorothy Garner, their supervisor, followed them back to the back of the fourth floor, at least out of the office spaces, and said she heard them going down the stairs. She knows when they came to the stairs. She was standing there talking to Elsie Dur. And she eventually saw Baker and Truly coming up the stairs, emerging from the stairs on their way and going up the stairs to the fifth floor where they got the elevator, went up to the roof or went up to the seventh floor, completely bypassing the sixth floor, by the way. Just throw that in there. So, Baker and Truly did not see the girls either. So, that kind of gets to be a problem a little bit. So, we’re pretty much saying that it took, according to my calculations, if you add all those times together, anywhere from a minute and a half to a minute and 40 seconds. Again, assuming that they’re wearing 3-in heels and they’re probably moving down the stairs a little bit clo quicker, slower than Oswald would. dark stairs. Then it took probably about a minute and 40 is what I come up with. Now that is supported by two other witnesses and that would be Bill Shelly and Bill Lovely. Bill Shelley and Bill Lovely said they were standing out front and they decided to hurry to the grassy null to see if they could see anything. They got to the grassy null and they didn’t. So they turned and I’m going to the next slide which I think is 40. Yeah, 40. And so they turned, they came along the front of the building to the railroad yards there and then they didn’t see anything. So they walked in and came into that west dock entrance that’s there behind the overhang in this picture. And Shelly basically said it would be between a one and a half and two minutes for the entire trip. And Love Lady said it was a minute and a half at the most. It was within less than one and a half minutes. So that means they were down the first floor. So when Sandra Styles and Vicky Adams emerged from the first floor stairs down there, they would have seen Shelly and Love Lady. And in her testimony, she did say she saw Shelly and Love Lady or at least Shel, Mr. Shel. Now the girls came out the dock exit and walked around. They said they got to the first railroad track and there was a police officer there that said no, you need to go back in. So they went ahead and walked around the west side of the building here down the railroad and they came back in the front of the building. And then they went up the stairs to the second floor directly in that little lobby. So they did not go back and see truly I’m sorry they did not see um Shelly at that time and they went up the second floor. Later on, they tried to go up to the fourth floor and they got on the freight elevator, but the freight elevator didn’t work. And it was with police officers and they got up to the fourth floor and they visited with the other ladies and they eventually left the building somewhere between one and two. So those are the movements of the employees and the stairs. Now the other thing that I talk about in my book is the detectives and this deputy sheriff’s their movements. again, a number of them. Baker was the only one that came into the building early right after the shots because he had seen pigeons flying off the roof of the building and thought pigeons were being, you know, there must have been a shooter either on the roof or up high. And he came in the building and I’ve had some police officers say, “Well, you should have waited and called for backup.” Well, at the time he left his motorcycle or Curry was telling people, the chief of police, get people in the overpass, see what’s going on up there. So, he was ordering men on the overpass. So Baker did not contradict him and say, “No, I think it’s the building.” Instead, he went on his own trying to catch somebody. I I get that question all the time. Why didn’t they seal off the [clears throat] plaza? Why didn’t they make it a crime scene? Well, it takes coordination. You got to remember 63, everyone did not have radios on their shirt. Yeah, they did not have personal radio. So, if you were away from your squad car or three-wheeler or motorcycle, you pretty much out of communication. there’s no way to coordinate seal off a plaza with about 500 people in it as a crime scene. So Baker rushed into the building and he went up the stairs. The other thing that comes up is the detectives and I cover it in my book. There’s a whole section on detectives and positor. So real quick because I know we’re going long here. I want to talk about that the movements that we know about. And at least Luke Mooney when he comes up says he encounters two deputy sheriffs. He doesn’t name them on his way up. And some people bring that up as these are suspic suspicious movements. Well, we know that Paul Walters said in his report, and again this is um Decker exhibit 5323, that he was in the building and Graham staff and Webster, two other detectives, called down the sun, said, “We need flashlights.” So Mooney and Graham staff left, went down the stairs to go get flashlights. They brought flashlights back and Grahamstaff doesn’t return but Web or Wal Walters does. Again, don’t be confused with Buddy Walths with an H. And this is Paul Wal Walters, right? And he returns with um Boone who had taken Betts to the sheriff’s office with his film. And so he didn’t get into the building until that point. And he returns with Boone and Smith. And so there’s at least two officers that were coming down the stairs about the time Mooney may have been coming up. Also, John Wiseman, another one of the deputy sheriffs, he said he went from six down to two a few times to organize the second search, the one for evidence. So those are pretty much the movements of the detectives in there, and that’s also covered in my book. Now, I I cover a lot more of the movements inside. We’re pretty much done here, but I’m going to bring up this one. This is the graph that come appears on page 269 in my book and I think it’s in your Flimflam book. Anyway, this is kind of a layout of all those movements we just talked about. And again, it’s all speculation. There were no video cameras, close capt. But the recreations are on the right. Baker recreated twice with the Warren Commission. One time it took him a minute and 30 seconds. One time it took him a minute 15. Oswald’s path was recreated by a 23 24 year old Secret Service agent coming down from sixth floor, walking his way through the boxes, stashing the rifle, and coming down four flights of stairs to the second floor lunchroom. And that was a minute 17. The only place that Baker and Truly who were standing in a very confined area and very confined steps or confined area down at the bottom of the first floor while they’re calling for the elevator, they would see anyone coming up and down the stairs behind them. Also, Jack Dhy brought the elevator down after he filled his order and the elevator was there was was moving at some time while these girls were going down the stairs. The only time they all could cross each other is where those purple circles are. And that’s when Oswald, Baker, and Truly are in the lunchroom. And the girls cross the second floor, not seeing Truly or Baker or Oswald, and Dohy descends in the elevator, not seeing Oswald. That’s the only time that could occur without them seeing each other. So, that’s pretty much a walkthrough of the whole thing. Again, it’s featured in my book. I I covered the inside of the TSB with about four different chapters. So, that’s covered very heavily in my book and I sorry I’ve been droning on for so long. I think we’re at a little bit over an hour. Well, it’s okay. I mean, fantastic presentation. Um, the one question I have is what about the um the ceiling of the Texas School Book Depository uh after the after the shooting and uh the possibility that or Roger Craig I think somebody came out the back of the School Book Depository and then eventually got a lift in a Rambler on on Elm Street. Okay. Um, I wasn’t going to do a whole bunch of things, but Roger Craig did say there was a Rambler that picked up somebody that whistled that looked like Oswald. Now, again, Roger Craig did not know Oswald. So, anyone who looks similar to Oswald, he may have confused as Oswald. So, I’m answering your second question first. Yeah. Again, he didn’t know Oswald. So, it wasn’t like anybody that he knew for sure it was Oswald. He just looked like him. Not sure what your question was about the ceiling. Uh what when was the Texas Global Guitizer sealed off so that nobody could exit? Oh, the ceiling. That ceiling. I thought you saying ceiling with a C. What ceiling are you talking about? Um that’s DV Hartness. DV Hartness. Sergeant DV Hartness was one of the three officers at Elm in Houston. His basic job was to wait for the motorcade to get close. He had his three-wheeler close by and he would sit there and listen to the radio and the b radio was turned up and that might be the same radio that German and Norman heard when the uh motorcade was on Elm or Main Street. So they knew they had enough time to get up back to the fifth floor before the motorcade got there. But he was there and you know after the shooting he got on his three-wheeler he ran to the or drove it rode it to the grassy null and there he didn’t find anyone but the little um Euan’s teenager 15year-old teenager 15 I believe Amos Euans yeah he had run over the grassy null and he basically said well I saw a shooter up in the uh school book depository in that building and so Harkness you can see it on the uh on one of the films Hartness gave him a ride, put him on the back of his three-wheeler, sitting on the back of it, and gave him a ride back to the front and put him into um Sawier’s car, Inspector Sawer, and then and then he went and talked to Sawier and said, “There’s someone in your car.” Detective Sawyer, we need to talk to him about him very briefly, too. He was coming down. He came down Elm Street and in his car and parked right in front of the building. He got there about 12:35, 5 minutes after the shooting. And he went into the building. He went into the passenger elevator there in that front lobby. He said he took it to the top floor. The top floor would have been the fourth floor. So, he took it up to the fourth floor and then he walked across the floor, didn’t see anything, and came down the stairs in the back. Well, he probably wasn’t even aware at that time that there was a two floors above him still or three floors above him. Five, six, and seven. But he came down. He came out the front of the building. DV Hartness walks up and he, you know, they’ve sealed off the front because there’s officers there. So he turns to Hartness, he says, “Have you sealed off the back of the building?” Hartness says, “No, I haven’t. I’ll go take care of that.” So Hartness goes back to the dock entrance and allegedly as he went by there and according to his testimony, he ran to a couple people that he thought were Secret Service agents. Of course, there were no Secret Service agents on the ground, but on his way back there, he ran into someone that said they were Secret Service agent. He didn’t stop and he didn’t I didn’t see a badge flash, but he went back and he sealed off, he says he saw sealed off the building about 12:38. So, it took about eight minutes to completely seal off the dock door and the front door. Now, the door back by the west side, I’m not sure anyone was aware of that door at that time, but the girls when they came out, they said there was a police officer back there. So, it may have been one of the police officers searching the grass area, which is where most of the officers originally went and they may have noticed the back door. So, they got in position and watched that back door and they may have talked to the girls and sent them around to the front. So, does that answer the question you had on it? Yeah. Yeah. ceiling, not an upper ceiling. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I you know, and I I think it also it pairs with the fact that nobody saw any strangers um in the building as well. So, it was sealed off relatively quickly. Now, now just just for the sake of my conspiracy friends, some of my conspiracy friends, this is all based on testimony by those people. Now, some of the conspiracy friends, they don’t trust anything the FBI ever wrote. They don’t trust the Dallas Police Department. They don’t trust social sec, you know, Secret Service. They think everybody was in on it. And if you think everyone’s in on it, all this information is useless because we don’t know for sure what happened in the building. We’re not video camera cameras or any way of knowing. This is all just based on testimony. And again, this chart is speculation based on testimony. So, I take it or leave it. I’m just kind of walking through the building and kind of giving the idea based on what we have been told by different sources. Again, if you believe everyone’s lying to you, then I can’t really help you too much. You can pretty much do anything you want. You could have Mr. Scott beaming the shooters into position and beaming them back out. I don’t know. Were you Were you in the Texas Global Depository in the uh you know, before? I was not. I said I I was in Denver in third grade, even though I was under my stepfather’s last names, but that’s my alibi and I’m sticking to it.

Okay. So, I I also got a request from somebody. I think it was a comment on the last episode. Have the comment below that they were expecting me to go through the history of Daily Plaza. I did that my first book. It’s It’s boring. I mean, I could bore you to tears on that, but I don’t see the sense of an episode for that. So, I just kind of mentioned that in passing. I’m not planning on doing that. If he can somehow get a hold of me, I do have a few copies of that book left. If he wants to pay shipping and cost the book, I’d be more than happy to send one, but I’m not going to go into a lot of details on the history of the plaza. Right. Right. I’m fortunate that I have a copy of that book autographed by you. Um, yeah. Well, you know, that’s valuable. Yeah. I’ve got about another 105 if you want another one. [laughter] I haven’t autographed them all yet. They’re still sitting in boxes. Yeah, go autograph them and uh you can sell them. I self-published. Yeah, I self-published back in 2002 and I think it cost me 500 books, $5,000, but uh so I still got a bunch of them. So I still haven’t made a profit. A lot. It’s always funny people say everyone’s profiting off the assassination. Well, you know, my my recent book, three years old, maybe I’ve sold 150 col. Well, same thing for me. I mean, look, I I get people all the time who say, “Well, you know, you’re doing all this blogging because you just want to sell books.” I said, “I wish I wish my blog posts would sell books.” Yeah. Yeah. They don’t. I mean, if I’ve sold 150 copies, maybe I clear $4 a copy or something that, you know, Amazon pays me, you know, that’s 600 bucks. I could probably spend an extra day in Vegas for that as long as I have to pay a hotel bill. Yeah. So, so yeah. No, it’s not easy selling books. Uh particularly these days when people don’t read as much. Now I have, like I said, profited more than a lot of people have because I did tours. And while I’m mentioning, I’m no longer doing tours. I kind of want to mention that out here. Um I stopped probably in 2017. Um, and 2020 COVID, I pretty much killed it. I mean, I stopped it completely for COVID and I never really fired them back up again. So, I’m no longer doing paid tours, but I do know a lot of tour guides.

Matter of fact, I was the 2017 president of the Dallas Fort Worth area tour guide association. So, I can get you in touch with tour if you want one, but I stopped doing them several years ago. Y

ou were the best. You you’re you’re the best. I can tell you that. I still give them for friends and acquaintances occas it’s it’s f they’re fantastic. Well, thank you very much for this presentation.

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Fred Litwin’s blog:
www.onthetrailofdelusion.com

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