www.mattkprovideo.com/2025/09/03/a-walkaround-dealey-plaza-with-fred-litwin/

A walkaround Dealey Plaza (downtown Dallas, Texas) with Fred Litwin, author of several JFK books, and his friend Steve Roe, co author of a chapter of Gayle Nix’s book “Pieces of the Puzzle.”

www.mattkprovideo.com/2025/09/03/r-i-p-ruth-paine/

Ruth Paine came back to Dallas for the 60th anniversary. She gave a talk in Irving and signed copies of her book. A hard-core JFK Buff Joe Alesi is friends with her and her son Chris. Joe Alesi knew our whole gang are strongly on the lone gunman side and very pro Ruth Paine. So she spent most of the week hanging out with us. Where she knew she’d be safe. (My take) i

In her speech in Irving Texas, she even stopped and pointed at our group and publicly thanked us for “policing the internet”

wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Paine

Ruth Hyde Paine (born September 3, 1932) is [citation needed] a former friend of Marina Oswald, who was living with her at the time of the JFK assassination. According to official government investigations,[1] including the Warren Commission, Lee Harvey Oswald stored the 6.5 mm caliber Carcano rifle used to shoot U.S. President John F. Kennedy in Ruth Paine’s garage, unbeknownst to her and her husband, Michael Paine.

www.mattkprovideo.com/2025/08/25/delusion-episode-21-the-marina-oswald-tapes/

On the Trail of Delusion, Episode 021, The Marina Oswald Tapes

After her Warren Commission testimony in 1964, many felt Marina Oswald had not been completely forthcoming.

Bobby Kennedy and J Edgar Hoover asked The FBI to wiretap Marina Oswalds phone in an attempt to discover any new information about her late husbands assassination of President Kennedy.

Host Fred Litwin hears these rare audio recordings and his guests Paul Gregory, Denis Moricett, Steve Roe and Marianna Yarovskaya discuss the implications of what Marina Oswald thought about conspiracy theories.

Fred Litwins website: http://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com

Music by: Power Music Factory Channel URL : / powermusicfactory

TRANSCRIPT:

I want to thank everybody for coming this afternoon. My name is Fred Litwin.
Noted author Fred Litwin. And of course, Fred is also the author of I was a teenage JFK conspiracy freak,
on the trail of delusion and Oliver Stone’s film Flam. The demagogue of Dealey Plaza. Fred Litwin is here. He’s a longtime author and certainly watcher of politics.
Joining us, Fred Litwin, great to have you here.
Thank you very much.

Welcome to another edition of On the Trail of Delusion, the podcast where I try to separate the wheat from the chaff and try to give you something substantial on the JFK assassination as opposed to some of the nonsense you’ll find on the internet and on YouTube.

Well, today we have a really special edition.

We’ve got my friend Steve Roe back to give us some incredible information along with Denny Moricet who is a a fantastic researcher on the photographs and videos of the assassination. And we have a filmmaker by the name of marianna.yarovskaya who are going to give us a little story about some newly discovered tapes um of Marina Oswald back in 1964. S

o, let’s go to Steve Roe and he could kick this off with some background information on what we’re going to discuss today. Hi everybody. Good to see you. Here’s a story of how JFK assassination researcher Denise Moriceet obtained the audio files of wiretap operation on Marina Oswald back roughly in March of 1964 from the National Archives.

But now for the first time we can hear those audio files and surprisingly they’re very very clear.

Now there’s been a lot of commentary on these tapes and that they were somehow evidence of Lee Harvey Oswald’s innocence of the assassination of President Kennedy because we hear recordings of Marina discussing her doubts about the official story. But a group of us have listened to these tapes intensely and we think it’s more a matter of Marina Oswald expressing hope that the father of her children might be innocent. That’s very important rather than any reason to think he was innocent. So let me give a little short background story on this leading up to it. After the Kennedy assassination, uh, Marina Oswald was taken under guard by the Secret Service to the end of Six Flags in Arlington. Later on this episode, we’re going to have a brief drop in visit from Paul Gregory, uh, the acclaimed offer of the Oswalds to talk about erroneous rumors that his father was a part of a plot to make Oswald look like a leftist. Uh Paul Gregory’s father, Pete, was a native Russian speaker and helped translate Marine Oswald’s interviews with the Secret Service. While under guard there, uh she made contact with a man named James Martin and uh he was a business manager.

he worked at the Inn of Six Flags and somehow Mr. Martin convinced her to be a business manager for her.

https://sixflags.fandom.com/wiki/The_Inn_of_the_Six_Flags

And a lot of stuff in the tape is Marina talking about this business manager agreement with uh James Martin. Uh Marina ended up signing a written contract for 10 years with Mr. Martin as as is her business manager. And after the Inn of Six Flags, when she was released by Russ uh secret service, she ended up in Dallas with several different families of the Russian immigrant community over there. Uh there were some, but but mainly she was the ones that really helped her out were uh uh Russian-American uh native native Russian named Katya Ford and her husband Declan Ford.

They were trying to help her get out of this written contract with Martin cuz she was not very happy with it. So they helped get a lawyer named Bill McKenzie out of Dallas and he got involved with it and he was trying to negotiate out the written contract that eventually eventually he did get settled uh somewhere I believe in May of 1964. So, I’m going to have to file a lawsuit on it and uh just proceed from there. And I’ve talked to a bunch of prominent attorneys here in town and they’re going to testify as to the reasonableness of a fee.

I hope to get it filed tomorrow afternoon depending on whether or not I have a secretary in the office. Uh she’s not wanting to sign some contracts. And I said, “What?” Said what now? Said that she was not uh wanting to sign any some contracts. They had some business contracts. and he started talking, said that she needed an agent to handle her business and so forth like that. And I and he asked me, “Did I know anybody that spoke Russian that could interpret?” I said, “Well, Mr. Gregory over in Fort Worth, the only one I knew.” And he said, “Well, uh, he thought maybe it might be not be best to bring in somebody else on that.” That was out in Martin’s house, right? Uh-huh. But there was no one there to speak Russian men, was there? No, it sure wasn’t. Now, was there a notary public there? No, was not. Okay. Well, they’re just holding out for something. They want $40,000 for Thor and Leech, and they want $20,000 for Martin. Really? Yeah. Oh, God. and they wanted $40,000 to get out of that written contract in uh uh they settled I think in May sometime or about $12,000.

Meanwhile, Marina got a lot of donations from well-wishers, kindhearted people throughout the nation and probably some from the world to help support her. I think the estimate I saw somewhere in the neighborhood of around $65,000 in 1964.

So, uh decision was made uh that Marina wanted to get her own home and the Fords uh assisted with her on that to help her locate a rental home over there uh not too far away from the Ford house in Richardson, Texas. That’s a suburb just north of Dallas. Uh Hat Marie’s warrant commission testimony in January 64. There were some people that were skeptical of her that she wasn’t forthcoming. The message got over to the FBI. The Warner Commission wanted to do some surveillance on her. So there’s two types of surveillance that were available. Of course, uh, one’s the old physical surveillance where FBI would go out there and watch, uh, her home, all the people coming in and out of their home, watch her movements. Uh, so they did stakeouts on her coming and going and the people she was seeing. Now, the second type of surveillance was a wiretap monitor, electronic surveillance. and Robert Kennedy, the attorney general, signed off on the wiretap and electronic surveillance. So, we have the uh uh document showing that. So, this operation eventually went down to the local Dallas FBI office, one of the special agents there, Nat King Pinkson, supposedly well acquainted with these wiretapping. He was the one that placed the wire taps on the the phone at the rental home in Richardson. And I believe it was on February 29th, which was a leap year that year, right before Marina moved into the new place, which a rental home. All right. Once they got this set up, Marina moved in 29 Belt Line Roads where she had her home. And they set up an operation uh listing post over there at 614 Beltline Road, not that far away. And in that place uh the listening post was uh a Russian speaking FBI agent named Anatoll Bogus and this went on for about 2 weeks and it was pretty short duration but it finally got discontinued. So, uh, getting back to all this, we had all these tapes and Denise and I and another researcher, uh, sort of trying to use Google translation, try to get, you know, translate these these things and we we were able to get some of that, but they’re they’re not all that clear. I mean, something gets lost in the translation. So, we thought it might be better to have a native Russian speaker listen to them. and uh uh help translate and uh we did find one and her name is Mariana Yvasaya. Sorry if I mispronounced her name. Mariana Mariana made a film called The Woman of the Gulog with Arthur Paul Gregory who will be on here a little later. Of course, she’s a native Russian speaker and it’s important because you can get all the inflections that go into how the people talk. You know, you get a better feeling talking live than just sitting on a piece of paper from Google Translate. Here’s the audio of the FBI call to Marina as they were trying to trick her into leaving her home. Are you going to be busy today? A little bit. Well, the reason I ask is uh Mr. Boguslav and I would like to take you for a ride and show you a couple of things and ask uh about them. Okay. Mhm. In the afternoon. Here’s Mr. Do you want to take me? I want to take you. Yeah. In a car. Where? Over to Neie Street. And you know to show us about the where y’all walked that night. And then you told me that you had never seen Beckley Street. Mhm. Maybe you would like to see it and we would uh why you want to show me get uh well to get an idea of exactly where you went and everything. Mariana, uh, how would you like to what’s your impression of these tapes when you first listen to Well, um, uh, first of, thank you, Steve. Um, I’m not a professional interpreter. I’m actually a filmmaker. And I was looking at it from the standpoint of a Russian speaker, former Russian journalist who became a filmmaker. And uh, um, to my opinion, it could make um, an interesting short film called The Widow. um for the whole um you know these five tapes. But um this is just my personal view um of you know it it could make an interesting story of a situation of a young girl 22 23 who um became involved in in probably the most significant murder in in American history as as the widow of the murderer. Um um these tapes uh to me say a lot about her character about who she was as a as a person as a human being. I do believe at 22 you are a formed human being. You can say what’s judging by what your interests are. You are pretty formed in my opinion especially back then. 22 was a mature age to my degree to my to my opinion. But as questions maybe I could um shed the light. I I wanted to add that she wasn’t just talking to women. She was talking to George Bouhair. I think there was an interesting dynamic between them because George was unmarried and 60 and she was 23 and uh she was bored out of her mind stuck in that house and she wanted to cook for him as many Russian housewives wanted like to to make a fish or to you know and he would say look I’m unmarried that would look strange. I don’t want to you know compromise myself. I don’t want to compromise you. I can talk to Katya who is married. I can’t talk to you after hours or I can’t come to you after hours. A lot of very interesting details like that. But ask questions. Your parents were alive in 1963 when this happened. Um have they ever talked to you about the JFK assassination? What their impressions? Did they believe in a conspiracy? Oh uh I grew up in Moscow. I was born and raised in Moscow and uh I must say that in in an in a family of Russian intelligencia, right? You know my father was a rocket scientist, my mother was a playwright and honestly um I was born, you know, I was born in the 70s. So, um I think it wasn’t um uh it wasn’t very much of an agenda in the 70s in the in or especially the 80s in u um in the Soviet Union. I think one of the biggest things was that it you know this was not connected of course from their standpoint with the KGB. That was the main point that this had no connection. uh but my parents never discussed it and in fact you know any kind of his American historical milestones were not big in the 70s and 80s um uh in a family um you know in in the family circle what what did uh what’s your impression did she say did she give any information about what she thought about Oswald her husband yes I think that I was a little bit surprised that there was not in the private conversation between her and Katya and they were very very personal. It just didn’t seem like she was um in love in any way of form. You know, that was not it didn’t sound to me like she was um you know a young woman in love. It w it sounded she was a mother of her children and it seemed like she had the duty uh to him. Uh, for example, there was a long conversation about the grave. You know, she would say things like, um, I want to make sure that his grave looks decent, that, uh, it’s not just a little hill like Americans do, but it’s a decent Russian type grave with a little fence and a cross. Because then she ended her speech to Ka that they even bury dogs with um some decency and he deserves it. Even though many people think he’s a dog, but he was a human being.

Yeah.

border. Uhhuh.

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Fore! Foreign! Foreign!

So, So that was an interesting dialogue that I remember and that touched me because you know as a filmmaker I thought you know you take this dialogue and only at the end you revealed who that is that it’s the widow of you know the biggest murderer sort of you know that that that could be an interesting that could be an interesting scene. Another um uh impression that I received from listening to her is that she wants to hope that it wasn’t him or wasn’t just him. That maybe he took the gun, maybe he took the gun but didn’t shoot. Maybe there was someone else. Maybe, you know, what if there was this uh uh can of coke? How could he run so quickly? And then very quickly his um conversation partner Carter says, “It’s none of your business to speculate. Let them deal with it. It’s none of your business.” And she keeps saying, “But I want to hope, but I understand, but I don’t but I want to. I understand.” So to me, it it the impression was she understands he was a killer, but she wants to hope that maybe he isn’t.

tipped.

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It’s it’s I mean it’s fascinating and I think it’s it’s you know I’ve seen this in other posts that I’ve in other interviews where Marina uh was always looking for some angle that maybe in fact she said I want to help. It’s for the children. She said in another interview I posted on my blog. It’s for the children. I want the children to feel better about things. If I could find some evidence that it wasn’t Lee or it was somebody else, it’s be psychologically better for the children. Do you get a sense of her concern for her children about what had happened? Obviously, it does seem despite the yelling, it does seem like she’s a good mother. You know, she she says things like, “How can I even go studies somewhere to, you know, they don’t understand I have those two kids and isn’t it full happiness to be a mother?

When somebody tells her, “Oh, she got knocked up again.” and you know when she was still married to Lee she says don’t they understand by saying so you know rudely that being a mother is happiness um yes I think that she she had children’s interest in mind all the time so that she had you know yes she was saying that if Lee w were to to be found innocent it it would be of course better for her for her and for the kids yes yeah that’s that’s very very natural uh thing for for her mother to feel. Sure. And she was a young mother. By today’s standards, she was a young mother, but um so was Katya and you know, I don’t think that that was such a big age difference um for Kaiser to call her immature. I think that Marina was pretty mature for her age dealing with two kids and and being at the center of media attention with journalists basically showing up um at her door morning and night and the fact that she went through the you know, immigrating to another country. I mean that’s that’s a very very big step as well right so she was under a huge huge amount of stress that that’s that’s for sure and so I would I would not call her immature she was calm through all these five tapes you know aside from few segments she was calm and quiet and very composed so you know she was never kind of losing it um as except for like I said did the Warren Commission get the transcripts and tapes. Did the Warren Commission get the the transcript and tapes? Uh, well, I would say they they got a summary of what was on the tapes. Uh, they certainly knew there was a wiretap operation going on. Uh, they probably didn’t want that to be public knowledge. But uh anyway, the the one that the person that did the summary was uh uh FBI agent Bogus and he he listened to the tapes and he wrote down like a summary of what Marina said. Most, you know, most important stuff, I mean, there’s a lot of details that she goes into and uh but you know, he makes a general summary. Uh they didn’t make it sound like somebody who told them somebody had overheard a conversation about naming that person, but they were trying very careful not to mention any wire tap. So Mariana, how would you describe Katcha Ford? I don’t know if I would describe as a mother figure to Marina, but you know, she was certainly uh I don’t know, somewhere about 15 years older than her. I’ve been in the country here now for, you know, well over 10 years for sure. Uh maybe she’s an older type sister or more of a mentor. Uh what was your impression of her? She was a I don’t know much about her background. She seems like um older older generation immigrant. So she’s much more integrated into the American society. Her Russian is much worse than Marina’s. She also mixes Russian and English. So creative this ring English rose English sort of um a hybrid language like you know they would say the word lawyer and then they would conjugate it like the like it would be a Russian word. Um she seems like a yes like an older friend. Um and they discuss very intimate things from women’s sexual desire to cheating to other women. And there is so much gossip going on.

Denny, you you’ve gone through the transcripts or is there anything that sticks out in your mind from the the transcripts? My favorite parts are when Katya and Marina discuss the assassination of President Kennedy. Those discussions come up after that Katya has given Marina information that she has found in newspapers and it’s very interesting to get Marina’s reactions to that information. Uh guys, let me give you a few examples. Here in the tapes, I found two examples of Marina thinking of the possibility of another man involved in a shooting. The first example is when Marina says that a man was seen running across the yard across the Texas school book depository. Marina believes that this man who was running had a role in the shooting.

Mhm.

What is

Mhm.

The second example of this is the fingerprint found on Lee’s raffle. Marina is not convinced that it proves that Lee did the shooting. Marina says, “Yeah, but Lee could have hold the raffle and his fingerprint stayed on it and then gave the raffle to somebody else.

Foreign

speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.

talk about everything.

Huh?

If I could redirect the conversation to another tape that I got from from you guys and that’s the tape of the first interrogation um done by Mike Howard And um I forget the other guy’s name, the other secret service guy with my father translating. Uh there’s been a whole theory developed and it it emerged out of Moscow, I believe. Uh there’s a whole theory uh that um Oswald did it, but Oswald was really a right-winger of the worst sort uh which prevalent in in Dallas. and uh that the uh white Russians in the area, including my father, had combined to create this story uh that my father deliberately mistransated uh the interrogation to uh to say that Lee was not a communist. The worst thing in the world would be if for them if Lee uh proved to be a communist. He’s not a communist. He’s actually a right-winger. And this Gregory guy who was translating mistransated to to create that impression. uh and they focus on one word and I’ve not talked to Mariana about this and that was her whether she was able to describe the rifle and they say he deliberately my father deliberately um mischaracterized it as as a a dark weapon and I thought that was maybe chney. Uh, but I want Mariana to listen carefully to that tape because you could hardly hear her speaking. Um, and see what she says when she describes the weapon. As I, as I say, they say that’s that’s the key to explaining uh this uh Oswald was actually a right-winger story. But we’re not talking about the FBI wiretaps. We’re talking about something else. This is agent Mike Howard, US Secret Service, Dallas. This recording made in regards to the assassination of President John Kennedy. Investigation being made by the Dallas office. This recording is being made at the end of the Six Flags in Arlington, Texas. Uh where Mrs. Oswald is is being held by Agent Howard at Charles Couple the Dallas office. This recording is being uh made in Russian. Our translator is Mr. Peter Gregory, interpreter from Fort Worth, Texas. Okay. All right. Mr. Gregory, would you ask her what her name is?

She does not know if Lee brought a gun from Russia.

No, she does not know of her knowledge. Did Lee purchase uh any type of a gun uh while uh while living in the United States?

Uh-huh. Uh, she says uh she knew that that there was a rifle in the house. Gun or rifle? What else now?

really fourth word.

New Orleans. Sorry. She says that uh uh she saw the gun in the house in in New Orleans and in Dallas. All right. Now, this gun, was it a a rifle or a pistol? Or just what type of gun can she

It was a gun.

Uh she said she cannot describe. It was sort of a dark uh rifle just like any other common rifle. She says

a baby needs to be fed.

Uh Mariana, would you uh would you know what a rifle looks like? May you know the difference between a rifle and a pistol?

Yeah.

about how uh can you describe this rifle that you saw?

Uh she says that the rifle of the approximately the same length as you’re showing her. However, the the the stock is this what you call stock, but the stock will need uh but the stock was longer and of course that that story of of Oswald being a right-winger was picked up by Jim Garrison who that I see I’ve not read any of that stuff. I I don’t want to waste my time on it. Yeah. So he he made a big deal of the fact that Oswald was not a lefty, that he was a right-winger, that in fact Garrison wrote that Oswald would have been more comfortable reading mine comp than Das Capidal. Mhm. Which was just ridiculous. But that’s that’s Jim Garrison. That’s been picked up by a lot of conspiracy theorists. Well, you can add to that in that I I think this order came directly out of Moscow, right, to change the the narrative and Gus Hall um I think also repeated that narrative. I’m sure being the head of the Communist Party of the US. Yep. and and this this translation of the appearance of the rifle is extremely important in these narratives. Going back to um Oswald being a right-winger story, I think where there are big returns and and that’s that’s to have a thorough examination of the Soviet documents, you know, which are proliferous. I’ve not spent a lot of time with them. You you need to know the Russian to to spend time. Uh, and I thought that would be something that really needs to be to be done. And I’m learning for the first time that one can perhaps go from Moscow to Gust Hall to Jim Garrison. Yes. And in fact, I’ve written about a a possible KGB operation involving Jim Garrison where he accu where there was an article in an Italian communist newspaper about Klay Shaw and I think that sort of was part of a KGB operation. Do you have the date of it? That was March. That was March of 1967. Okay. So, wasn’t in the immediate aftermath? No. The Soviets had a couple of operations to try and convince Americans that the CIA was behind the assassination or or other right-wingers. Uh but I’m and in fact, that’s that’s why I really want to see the uh the Russian files that are still in Moscow to see what other operations they were running. I can’t really recall the sources I used. you know, they were readily accessible as as I recall. Um, you know, I I do have to run. It’s a pleasure to meet uh the two of you. Yeah, it was great meeting you. There’s no reason we can’t do this in the in the near future, but I I I don’t want to be late for my appointment. Yeah, I’d love to have another podcast with you to talk about this in more detail because uh I I I liked your book. Thank you very much.

Marina says maybe Lee didn’t hit the president. He knew better who he was shooting at. Maybe she was talking about Lee shooting at Governor Connelly, but he missed him and hit GFK instead. Is it possible? Do you think it’s possible? Well, I don’t I don’t think it’s possible that’s what he was aiming for, but a lot of people have said that, and in fact, there’s a couple of books out there saying that his real target was Connelly because of uh the refusal to change his undesirable discharge. Yes. But I don’t buy it because I think I think that if he really wanted to hit Connelly, he would have then shot while he was uh coming up Hston Street, you know, where he would have gotten a much better view of Connelly as opposed to Shaney Kennedy was in front of, you know, who was uh I just don’t think it’s that don’t think it works very well. Uh we hear a discussion of writer Patricia McMillan Johnson who later wrote Marina Oswwell’s memoirs Marina and Lee back in 1977 and on the tapes we we hear discussion of Patrician McMillan Johnson. So, you know, we hear of her. Of course, she was trying to persuade Marina to write a book back in the early. I had a telegram today from Harper’s magazine and Oh, I’m glad you brought that up. I got one, too. Good. From Harpers. And what did they say to you? Just a second, Bill. Let me get it. I have it in my coat here. Says, “Hope you will consider possibility of Harper’s publishing Marina Oswel memoirs in a Priscilla Johnson writing them.” Stop. Harper, one of oldest publishers in US whose distinguished authors include both John F. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. Robert Kennedy. Yeah, that’s the same that’s the same telegram they sent me. Well, I thought I’ll write them a nice letter tomorrow and send you a copy of it. You and I talked about how interesting it was on tape number nine to hear Marina and Katchcha talk about the newspaper stories of Lee allegedly being seen drinking a Coca-Cola right after the assassination.

Oh, yeah.

Well, Denise and I were talking about this time travel reporter who was Darwin Payne. And Dennis, you want to go on about that? It’s pretty interesting. Darwin Payne um entered the house. I think he didn’t even knock or maybe Marina didn’t hear the knocking. And um and in a case she let Marina let Darwin Payne, he was um a reporter for the Dallas Times Herald and she thought he was an FBI agent and she just let him in. I think she called Decline Ford and Decline Ford asked her to um kick him out that he should not be there and she was very worried that she she lets anybody in come in and you never know somebody could be somebody who could do harm to her. Darwin Payne is still alive. I will ask him if he remembers that part. Uh there’s an article in the paper this morning by the reporter that came out there yesterday. Mhm. And he says that he just walked in. Mhm. So, I want you to be real careful about about that cuz I’m very concerned about it. I’m worried about it. So, don’t let anyone come in the house while I’m gone. Okay. Okay. Enough. Um Marina was only 23 when when these conversations took place and uh I moved to America 23. you know, it’s it’s a it’s quite a shock to to end up in another country and she ended up completely alone. So, and her husband ended up being a murderer. Um, and she believed it. She she knew it and she just maybe hoped that he didn’t shoot at the president, but um, you know, she believed for sure that he shot the cop and um, she didn’t doubt that, you know, he was preparing to take the guns and so forth. And uh when she was alone surrounded by uh people who wanted something from her and she she unders she was aware of it. She was aware of it. You know we discussed that Katya mentioned at one point that Marina was immature. I think she was mature for her age just completely in a very strainous circumstance and having to mother two kids. So um yeah and she was also in a very tumultuous marriage where she was being beaten and and so yeah there’s a lot she went through an awful lot coming to America in that whole situation when she ended up living in a in a um house of a married couple Martin and his um wife and I forgot the wife’s name um when the wife seemed to be aware of the fact that Martin was hitting on Marina and then Later they they started having an affair but the white wife seemed to not have said anything because uh they wanted to get paid. I think they were getting considerable sum of uh thousands of dollars to host Marina and um because you know they also had children and Martin was unemployed. Um, and I think, you know, they didn’t kick her out and they didn’t even let her go when when uh uh people were trying to say, you know, she has another she can she can leave separately. You know, both the wife and Martin said no. So it it looked like to me that she felt completely trapped in that very very unhealthy situation when um you know a man much older than she is was was hitting on her and then ended up in an affair and the wife knew it but because of money didn’t want to um um to act on it for the time being.

Foreign

speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.

for

mostly.

from. Well, look, I’d like to thank Marianaa and Denis and Paul for joining us on this episode of On the Trail of Delusion. Hopefully, we can come back soon to discuss Marina’s Warren Commission testimony. I think that would be another ery interesting session. So, thank you very much.

Heat. Heat. N.

Heat. Heat. N.

Heat. Heat.

Join us for a night of some of the best metal in Texas!

Featuring:

Excodex
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Redacted

Brought to you by Texas Revolution LLC

Doors at 8:00; music at 9:00
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www.mattkprovideo.com/2025/08/22/metal-from-the-abyss/

www.mattkprovideo.com/2025/08/21/ep-21-marina-oswald-tapes-rough-cut/

This is a preliminary, rough cut of episode 21, dealing with the FBI surveillance tapes of Marina Oswald.

www.mattkprovideo.com/2025/08/13/episode-19-dr-chad-zimmerman/

Episode 19, Dr. Chad Zimmerman

In this episode of ON THE TRAIL OF DELUSION, Fred Litwin hears Dr. Chad Zimmerman discuss what he learned visiting the National Archives to view the original John F. Kennedy autopsy photographs and X Rays.

Doctor Chad Zimmerman explains what the original JFK autopsy photographs and X- Rays tell us about the origin of the bullet wounds.

Dr. Zimmerman is one of the few people allowed into the National Archives in College Park, Maryland to see the original, unaltered materials. His background in Chiropractic medicine gave him unique insights into what these materials really tell us.

His scientific approach to research led him away from conspiracy theories and towards accepting the Lone Gunman narrative. He has been a consultant on several research projects and the Discovery Channel documentary: “Discovery Channel – Unsolved History, JFK Beyond The Magic Bullet.”

In addition to being a professional chiropractor, Dr. Zimmerman is also the producer of the acclaimed true crime pod-cast, Footsteps in the Dark.
www.footstepsinthedarkpodcast.com/

Transcription of this episode:

I want to thank everybody for coming this afternoon. My name is Fred Litwin.
Noted author Fred Litwin. And of course, Fred is also the author of I Was a Teenage JFK Conspiracy Freak, On the Trail of Delusion,
and Oliver Stone’s Film Flam. The Demagogue of Dealey Plaza.
Fred Litwin is here. He’s a longtime author and certainly watcher of politics.

Joining us, Fred Litwin, great to have you here.
Thank you very much.

So, welcome to another edition of On the Trail of Delusion,
where I try to separate fact from fiction in the JFK assassination
and try to give you something of substance rather than the usual idiocy you find on YouTube
or on the internet um from the conspiracy idiots.

So today my special guest is Dr. Chad Zimmerman. 
Dr. Zimmerman was born and raised in Sioux City. Iowa

He graduated from Northwestern College of 
Chiropractic in 1999 and he practiced in Sioux City,
Colorado and now in Fargo, North Dakota.
He also now has a true crime podcast called
Footsteps in the Dark.
Now what makes Dr. Zimmerman so 
interesting is he is one of the few doctors to have actually examined
JFK’s autopsy X-rays and photographs
and I thought that he could basically come on here and really tell us exactly what 
those autopsy materials tell us.
So welcome Dr. Zimmerman.
Well thanks thanks for having me.
Okay so how did you get into the JFK assassination?

I think I read this might have been in your bio 
or there was somebody else that you talked to very similar.
I got into it when I was in high school. My father took me to the movie JFK by Oliver Stone. I was transfixed by what I had just seen.
2:07
And then my father started to kind of feed it and he bought me
On the Trail of the Assassins by Jim Garrison.
2:13
I started reading it. I happened to be on a trip to New Orleans at the time.
I begged my mother to to let me go walk or take me around the French Quarter
2:19
so I could go see 54 544 Camp Street
2:25
and, you know, all the sites. And so, uh, I think the movie was The Seed, the books were the fertilizer.
2:32
And by 96, I think it it was, I taught my, uh, former high school history class on the top 20 reasons I was convinced that, JFK was killed as a result of a conspiracy, right?
2:44
and then I went to school and I got smarter. And after having physics education and medical education and different things like that,
I happened to stumble across a book called Case Closed by Gerald Posner.
2:58
And then I became very confused. And when I’m confused, I start tearing things apart. And that’s kind of what happened.
When I graduated chiropractic school, I got a job. I started developing an income.
And I started purchasing resources.
And one of those would have been the 26 volumes of the Warren Commission report. I went through every single page of that.
I bought a Carcano like Oswalds. I have ammunition just like it.
And I got on the forums. I got on the old, you know, alt assassination.jfk stuff. I started interacting with people. eventually I became a moderator in that group and spent a few years doing that.
Got to have some really interesting conversations with
3:41
a lot of very interesting people and I just started working through it.
I had my top 20 reasons why I was convinced it was a conspiracy and I went through one of them each one of them line by line
3:49
and I kept crossing them off and by the time I got done there was really nothing left, right?
3:55
And my intent on it I think was probably a little ego gratification at that time in my
4:01
life and wanted to potentially write write the next great bestseller book or or something.
4:08
But, you know, I think the draw to true crime for most of us is that we know it happened. We know there’s a truth that exists and that we want to find it.
And that that’s where my where the JFK journey took me.
I had some, you know, very neat opportunities there. I was able to go to the archives, see the original autopsy photographs and X-rays,
and spent three and a half hours with Larry Sturdivan there doing that.
but then by the time I got By the time I got done,
4:37
I had a US public that was 80% convinced of a conspiracy and I was now 20% that didn’t believe in that anymore.
4:42
So, I kind of moved on from it, honestly. Right. Okay. So,
4:50
very much one question about New Orleans. When you went to uh was was the Newman building still there
4:55
when you went to 544 Camp Street? Yeah, it was. Oh, you didn’t did you go inside at all or No,
5:01
I didn’t go inside. We just kind of we walked around. Um I’m trying to we’re going back you
5:07
know 30 year 29 years here. Um no we didn’t do much. We walked around. I remember if it was that
5:14
it was probably around that year we took a trip my mother and I to Dallas and that’s when I visited
5:20
the book depository for the first time. Right. And you know I think at that time I was still
5:26
pretty convinced of a of a conspiracy. Um, I had a roommate or a a gentleman that lived across the
5:32
hall from me and, you know, he had a a big giant stack of VHS tapes full of of conspiracy theory
5:41
um, shows on JFK. And so I would borrow those and and watch those. And and so I had, you know,
5:47
a thousand times more information telling me it was a conspiracy than I had otherwise, which, you know, generally means you got to find 5,000 times more things to to change your mind. But uh I
5:57
I think I did that in the course of you know four or five years. So okay. So look um obviously your
6:06
expertise is really on the medical and ballistic evidence. So um perhaps you can tell us a bit
6:11
about um how it how it happened that you went to the archives to see the autopsy materials. Well,
6:17
okay. So that was about 2004. I got into this about 2000. started on the the old, you know,
6:24
forum page and I just started asking questions and at some point I would I would naturally gravitate
6:32
towards the things I had some background in which was medical and ballistic and I started looking at things. One of the things that stands out that I remember was there being confusion about where
6:43
uh Kennedy was hit with the first shot. You know, was it at the base of the neck? Was it T2? Was it T3? Where was it? And I had a lot of resources available to me at the time. We had an
6:53
autopsy report. Nobody really questioned the 14 cm um uh dimension that was written, you know,
7:01
right below the mastoid. And we thought, okay, well, there’s a starting point here. I had a
7:06
I had an X-ray bank with hundreds of of full spine X-rays that my my employers had. And so
7:15
I started making measurements. You could see the mastoid. You could draw it down. I used myself as a model. I took X-rays and I so I started just investigating what’s the truth here.
7:24
And you know pretty soon I realized that you know 14 cm below the mastoid in the neutral position
7:32
like Kennedy pretty much was at autopsy um would land right near the base of the neck in a six foot
7:39
tall individual. And and so I went through the steps of showing that and proving it to myself first and then then I would have discussions about it. Eventually, it led to a web page. I
7:48
got I kind of got tired of explaining a whole bunch of things over and over again. And so, I created a a website where I would post articles on these various aspects that I was looking at.
8:00
And it just, you know, kind of evolved over time. Um, I got into the ballistics aspect. I bought it.
8:06
I bought the rifle. I had to make my own rounds because it was $200 to $300 a box for the western
8:12
cartridge rounds. And so I was collecting those on the side. That was a lot of money to me back
8:17
then. So I didn’t want to shoot them. So I bought a thousand rounds of old World War II ammunition. Started pulling the bullets because they were all corrosive. Uh repackaging them into into
8:26
new brass and and powder. And then I would go out and I would conduct ballistics experiments. And
8:32
sometimes people would they’d say, “I think the first shot hit a tree branch. Could you go shoot it and show me what a bullet would look like if it does that?” And so I would I would go out on the
8:40
lunch. I had long lunch breaks about an hour and a half and I could drive about 15 miles, you know, shoot some things, videotape it, come back, pull off the data, you know, and move on to the next
8:50
thing. So, I did a lot of X-ray, I did a lot of ballistic stuff. Um, and eventually over time,
8:56
developed a pretty good understanding of things, or at least I thought I did. And I wanted to see
9:03
I I couldn’t test my hypothesis any further unless I had the actual autopsy photographs.
9:09
We were extremely transfixed on on the fox number eight photograph, the very closeup one. Um,
9:16
that was, you know, the Groden books and the different books always published that thing to make it look like it’s the back of the head. And you have the exit beveling and so it had to
9:24
be a shot from the front. And I had gotten a high quality scan um from a disc I think I bought off a
9:31
JFK Lancer or something. and and I was convinced that it was oriented incorrectly that and that
9:37
I could see a jar right kind of in that in that bottom right corner. And so I wanted to see it.
9:44
So my whole trip to the archive started with this burning desire that I I had to test, you know,
9:50
a hypothesis. And so I had found out that Larry Cerivan had gotten um permission to go. And so
9:58
I I reached out to Larry and uh he forwarded his the letter he’d sent to me. I I read through his
10:05
letter. I put my own letter together, sent it off to attorney uh Paul G. Kirk and then sure as heck
10:12
I got I got approved to do it. And so Larry and I scheduled the time to meet and flew out there and it was a really wonderful experience. It’s a tremendous facility they have there and obviously
10:22
tremendous care that they they provide for these irreplaceable one-of-a-kind um American artifacts,
10:29
which is kind of what they are now. But um Larry and I spent three and a half hours in a room. We,
10:34
you know, looking at them. We couldn’t touch anything. Um if you wanted something moved, they had to move it. But uh we were able to to make some drawings of of some things. We wanted
10:44
to to see if we could figure out answer some of the questions. you know, where where was the head
10:49
where was the head wound at? Um, you know, what was the orientation on the F8 photograph? Uh, what
10:55
could we see in the X-rays? That was a really big one and a really interesting experience because
11:00
the the quality of the X-rays is, you mean, it’s infinitely better than the stuff that anyone else
11:06
is looking at. Those are poor Xerox copies that are kind of black and white, whereas we’re looking
11:11
at an actual X-ray film that’s it’s actually light blue. It’s dark with shades of blue in it and and
11:18
there’s so much detail um in those X-rays and you could you could obviously see what were bullet
11:25
fragments um you know they were as white as or as you know as light as could possibly be and so as
11:32
we looked uh through those things you know I would say there was three four five really interesting
11:37
takeaways that we got from that experience and then I came back I thought we had made some great
11:42
discoveries and and uh I started digging through uh Humes and Boswell’s prior testimonies and I
11:49
think it was probably the HSCA stuff and I was going through their testimonies as as they’re looking at the autopsy photographs and the X-rays and sure enough, you know, here they’re describing
12:00
what I saw and here they they’re describing what I saw, but they didn’t know what they were seeing in
12:05
in many cases. You know, the one of the neat one of the most eyepopping discoveries was looking
12:12
at the the lateral X-ray of President Kennedy’s shattered skull. And in the in the rear kind of
12:20
lower posterior portion back here, you could see little bone shards. Okay? They were the same exact
12:26
density as as the bone pieces you were seeing everywhere else, but here they were inside of the
12:32
skull. And the only way those could have gotten there is by being blown into it from an entrance
12:38
wound in the back of the head. So we went looking for the, you know, where’s this entrance wound
12:43
at? And on the the actual um lateral view, you really can’t see. And so they they enhanced it,
12:51
right? There’s the enhanced lateral X-ray. And when you look is that look at that sure as heck you can you can see a a spot right in the center of the back of the head in the
13:01
most rearmost portion of the head. Um there’s a defect right there and it looks like there might
13:07
it might have been a little bit of bevel beveling there. Um and it certainly correlates with what we found in the F8 photograph because the F8 photograph shows the entrance wound. That was
13:17
interesting because here we’re looking at multiple color photographs of that image. that image,
13:25
right? And and what you find out is that is that the camera angles from is kind of like from this
13:30
angle down and in and the ruler is where it’s at because they’re trying to point out where the where the entrance wound is. And so you could when you were looking at the at the pictures,
13:40
you could kind of you could look at them and kind of tell what order they were even taken in. Um,
13:46
in one of the pictures, so imagine you have a a child’s bottle of bubbles, right? And you shake it
13:53
up a little bit. You take the lid off and you have that film across the top of it. Yeah. Okay. There
13:58
there was film across the hole in the scalp, but the film was was blood. Okay. And it was covering
14:05
the entire hole. And then you look at the the next picture and that little film had broken and there
14:10
was this kind of violet purplish light that was coming through there and you’re looking at that and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, that’s the entrance moon right there.” Right? And so if you could take
14:19
these pictures and triangulate them a little bit, make sense of them, you could exactly pinpoint where that entrance wound was. And we took we had a an old 1960s military stereoscope I bought off
14:30
of eBay and we brought it there and we had them put them side by side and look so we could develop a three-dimensional image and things like that. Anyway, what I what I ended up concluding was that
14:40
um the Warren or the the pathologists, you know, two and a half centimeters right slightly above
14:47
the EOP, they were wrong and it was about an inch or so above that and it wasn’t where the Cowic
14:55
entrance was. There there’s nothing at the Cowic entrance. Um and there’s no such there’s no such trail of fragments, right? Trails of fragments exist in closed systems. Um, a blown aart skull
15:06
is no longer closed system. And you can’t rely on place, you know, the placement of things very well. And so we’re looking at this, we’re seeing this spot on the rear of most posterior part of
15:18
this lateral X-ray. Uh, oh, and that’s where those pencil lines, right? Remember the whole thing about the pencil lines? Well, the pencil lines were on it. And the there’s a horizontal
15:28
one that matches the bottom of the film. So, it’s the kind of we called it the horizontal film plane line there. And then the other one goes right up through the the middle of the the missing
15:38
area of the skull, but they converge right back at that exact point. And it’s it’s that part of
15:44
the film that’s cut off in the reproduction on the HSCA stuff. Um, that’s where the that’s where it
15:50
looked like the entrance was. Okay. And so the question became, okay, how did the pathologists get it wrong? Um, and I’m always going to rely on pathologists because they’re looking at they’re
16:00
looking at it, right? It’s hard to say they’re wrong, but they were wrong. And so why were they
16:06
wrong? And so I started looking at the premortem X-ray of of Kennedy and okay, they measured from
16:16
the EOP. Where’s the EOP? And I’m looking at this thing. Where’s the EOP? You can’t see a
16:22
very distinct EOP on an X-ray. um it’s got to be probably even harder um when it’s the actual skull
16:29
bone and there’s blood and all that kind of stuff. And so I I I had sent I’d read a book written
16:35
by a forensic anthropologist. And so I thought, well, what the heck? Early days in the internet,
16:42
everybody had a website and a contact email. I thought, well, send her send her an email. And so I sent her an email. I said, I’m looking at an X-ray. I’ve attached it. I’m just trying
16:50
to find the EOP on this. it’s part of a class project maybe or something like that. Uh would
16:56
could you help me out? And and she she emailed back. She goes, “Oh, it’s it’s called a bun EOP.
17:01
That means they hardly have one. Very hard to, you know, to find.” And I thought, “Okay, well, maybe that’s the reason, right? You could when you’re looking at the back of someone’s skull, you
17:09
can figure out the center of it, but if you can’t figure out where the landmark is, it’s really hard to to say slightly above or really far above or give an exact measurement.” And so I thought,
17:19
well, maybe the answer to this is really simple. um they couldn’t see the EOP. So maybe that’s why
17:25
they got it wrong. And I think that’s so much of this confusion over the decades um has come from
17:30
such a simple little mistake like that. So how far So in their estimate how far away how far was the
17:36
entrance when from what they were saying like was it they said slightly above they’re saying it was
17:43
slightly I don’t I don’t know what slightly above means 38 of an inch. It’s I would I would put the
17:49
entrance at somewhere in the neighborhood of an inch to an inch and a half above the EOP. Right.
17:54
Okay. I would put So why why do you think that the uh the HSSE got the caught it all wrong and saying
18:00
the the entrance wound was in the cow area? Well, if now I’m going on old memories here, but you
18:07
know, if you if you go back and you read through the the interviews of the pathologists, um they
18:13
couldn’t figure out where it was, right? They’re looking at the picture, the back of the head photo photograph, and what and there’s a ruler here and there’s a hole here and they’re saying that’s not
18:21
a bolt hole, right? I mean, that’s happened and they’re going, “Well, what’s that little white
18:28
thing down there?” Maybe I think it maybe it was down there. Like they didn’t know. They had it in their heads that it was lower than it was and then they went looking for it and couldn’t find it and
18:36
it resulted in all this confusion, you know. And then you have this this panel put together of,
18:43
you know, experts looking at stuff. I don’t know how long they’ve looked at stuff, but um they looked at it long enough to somehow conclude that a a frail of or a trail of fragments that that
18:54
leads nowhere. Like if you follow that trail, it hits bone and then the break in the bone’s
18:59
way down here, right? So, uh what kind of trail is that where you got to make a left turn in order to
19:05
find the fracture in the bone? So, I don’t I mean I don’t know like I remember years ago Bouiosi I
19:11
was uh corresponding with him on some things. I just gotten back from the archives and, you know,
19:16
he was putting the finishing touches on his book and I thought, well, I’m going to reach out to him and see if I strike Peter with anything and and just thought I had some interesting observations
19:25
um for him. And I would bring up things about the X-rays or the photographs, anatomical placements,
19:31
whatever. And they didn’t, you know, they didn’t agree with one of the previous uh esteemed uh
19:38
bodies. But, you know, he asked me the same thing. He’s like, “Well, why, you know, why are you saying this when these people with these degrees say this?” And I don’t know, you know, all I can
19:47
tell you is that, you know, I went to college from 1996 to 1999. X-rays were not well in use,
19:54
um, you know, probably until what, the 40s or 50s or something like that. Um, the quality and so you
20:01
look at these doctors that are pathologists in the 60s. um you know what’s the quality of the
20:07
textbooks that they’re working with when they when they went to school? I don’t know. Probably not very good. Um the things that I saw on the X-rays, I think a any firstear chiropractic student
20:19
um will see the same things on an X-ray, right? There’s a difference between what a bone shard the
20:24
the density of a bone shard versus the density of a metallic fragment on an X-ray. It’s night
20:30
and day. But I’m reading the pathology reports and they’re getting confused and they don’t know what it is. Um, so it tells me that I think um in terms of our western medicine and our science and
20:42
our education, we’ve just we’ve come a really long ways from the time that they went to school to the time I did. That’s the only way I can explain it. And so were the were there fracture lines coming
20:51
out of the the entrance wound in the in the back of the head? But you couldn’t see that. I mean, you can’t see the entrance. The only way let me when you you you know you’re taking
21:03
something that’s threedimensional and squishing it into two dimensions. So it makes the whole three-dimensionality of it very difficult. Um and so when you’re looking like an like an A to P,
21:13
you’re losing that depth perspective, right? Everything’s smooshed like this. Now you couldn’t
21:19
see you couldn’t really see the entrance wound clearly in in the AP. You understand the whole the whole skull is a fractured mess at this point. It’s it would take a long time to sketch out the
21:30
fracture pattern on it. Let me put it that way. Okay. And try to figure out what’s left side versus right side on like a lateral view. Um now could there were there some could there
21:40
have been some fractures there? There probably were. I just man it’s been so many years that
21:46
it’s been a while since I’ve thought about that. I think there was. Um, but you’re going to lose
21:51
a lot of that that depth being smooshed into the posterior fossa on a lateral view. And so
21:57
you it’s going to be hard seeing anything coming from it. But then when you get up into, you know, into other areas of the skull, you’re going to see some of those those fracture lines. But it’s like
22:08
I said, it’s very difficult um with a skull that that’s damaged to try to make sense of it all,
22:15
you know. But as I recall, I think there was a fracture line there. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have been terribly interested in that location anyway. Yeah, you lose a lot of that perspective,
22:27
right? So, um, what there’s so many questions here. So, well, first off, I I really wish they’d
22:34
actually make the autopsy, X-rays, and photographs public because, uh, but, you know, there’s the bootlegs out there, and it’s I think they should should actually make them public so people can do
22:44
their own analysis. Yeah. you know, I go back and I’ve always gone back and forth on that. You know,
22:49
I think of like if I had a child and the child was murdered um in some way, would I want, you know,
22:54
the images of that all over the place just because people have some sort of a, you know, stuck interest in it. So, as a family member, I can understand why they might not want something
23:04
like that. Um, and now in terms of of something that we’ve turned into a a political explanation
23:12
for everything under the sun, um, you know, maybe it’s not a bad idea to put that stuff out there to
23:22
answer some questions for people or something, but, you know, is there is there a long-term effect in doing that? I don’t know. like, well, yeah, I agree with you, but I would not want these
23:31
out if it was uh uh the only reason I want it out is the fact that we already have so many photos in
23:38
the public domain right now. So, yeah, I I mean, I agree. I rather have the real thing out there. So,
23:43
and particularly the X-rays. I don’t think there’s much harm in releasing the X-rays. No, I I the X-rays are very interesting to look at. And I think, you know, putting, you know,
23:52
the the color version F8 out there would end all of this so much of this nonsense that it shows
23:59
a an exit crater from a frontal shot. It clearly does not show that. It shows exactly the opposite.
24:04
Deep deep down inside, if you’re a Kennedy family member, like what does it matter? You you know, we
24:10
there’s people that are flat-earthers out there. Like you could give them everything. you know,
24:15
there could have been a, you know, high quality videotape of the actual assassination and you give
24:20
it to people and it’s just fake. Yeah. So, let me ask you a bit about the the entrance wound in the head. So, Dr. Boden said that um if if there was a lower lower than the collic entrance wound,
24:32
then the the cerebellum would have been damaged, but the cerebellum was not damaged. So, do you
24:37
do you see any problem? I don’t think that’s No, I don’t think that’s true. Um you saw the photographs of the brain. Yeah. Um the cerebell we looked at those if I remember I think we looked
24:47
at those in 3D too. So you had you have the the left hemisphere the right hemisphere the right
24:53
hemisphere looked like a plate of spaghetti. Okay. Left hemisphere was completely intact. Um, we
24:59
looked there was a a view of it from the inferior angle and we could I could see um some very small
25:09
uh linear little tears almost like I don’t know if it was like in the meningis or something you
25:17
know but um it looked like something that would have happened when you put your hands down and tried to lift the brain out. It it looked very explainable but no there was no bullet damage
25:28
to it but you know your cerebellum’s back in you know back there right right and you understand
25:37
that so calick and then you know roughly the the autopsy entrance point so this is the two things
25:44
they’re talking about it’s got to be this or it’s got to be this right nobody talked about this and
25:50
that’s going to be that’s going to be above the cerebellion right Right. And I think supports
25:56
that, you know. Right. So what I find interesting is is is the we actually there are no photographs
26:04
of the brain out there. There’s some drawings. Correct. But the the fact that the left hemisphere
26:09
of the brain is intact is proof that there’s no shot from the grassy null or the side. Well,
26:15
absolutely. That’s that’s a near perpendicular shot, right? Yeah. There’s no way. And so that
26:20
forces conspiracy people to say that that that the stringer those are those are not JFK’s brain,
26:27
right? That there’s somebody else’s brain. Yeah. I mean it’s it’s fake. It’s tampered with somebody
26:32
you know everything’s fake and tampered with when it doesn’t agree. So or you know I don’t
26:39
I don’t know how how do you how do you counter the nonsense? Like I know. So was there any indication that any of those materials had been altered or or faked? Not that we could see. No, I mean,
26:50
I don’t know how you would have done it in 1963 or 65 or whenever they think these things happened.
26:55
Um, you know, I remember years ago, I remember reading that if you viewed the the photographs,
27:02
I think it I think this came from Groten because I think Groden, which I don’t know how he got to
27:08
be part of the HSCA, but he was, um, you know, I think he even admitted that the pictures were
27:14
authentic. Yeah. Okay. And he he made the comment that if you looked at a stereop pair of of these
27:21
pictures under under a stereoscope that had they been tampered with it it would be you know as
27:27
obvious as could be and you know we didn’t look at every single one of them in stereop pairs. We
27:33
looked at F8. We looked at the brain. Um there was there was no evidence of that. But further,
27:39
one of the things that stood out to me was uh if you looked I sent you a link to to Lee Oswald’s
27:46
autopsy photographs, right? Yeah. Did you notice the double exposures and some of the terrible
27:52
photography, right? Kennedy, the best thing about him being, you know, hijacked from from Texas and
27:58
sent to Maryland is they had the guy that taught the course um there that night and the photographs
28:05
were fantastic. There might have been one or two out of four dozen or however many there were that
28:11
were a little out of focus or something, but you could count the hairs on the side of his head. That’s how clear a lot of those pictures were. So, I don’t know how they would have been faked.
28:20
Right. Right. No, I I I don’t know either. It’s it’s just it’s just I mean, the other argument
28:25
they say is that Stringer um didn’t take the bachelor bachelor view of the brain, but he
28:32
took the other one. But of course both both views of the brain must must have been consistent. How
28:38
could you know I mean I mean it just doesn’t make sense. You can you can slice and dice your way out
28:45
of facts a million different ways but what do you think of Dr. David Mantic’s view of uh his density
28:52
readings saying that the some of the X-rays were had been altered? Well I mean honestly so at the
28:58
point that I read that book I was still I was kind of on the fence about a lot of things. I was very excited to see that a book was coming out um that was done by you know intelligent people with
29:10
big degrees and and interesting ideas and people that were actually testing things. Uh that was my
29:16
feeling going into it until I read the book and then it kind of got destroyed. Um and but I was
29:23
really interested you know Mantic I thought had a really interesting idea. Um, and so he modified
29:30
an an optical densitometer and took it in there and supposedly it made measurements at, you know,
29:36
tenth of millimeter increments or some bizarrely small distance. Um, and so that was I read it. It
29:45
was interesting and I went and I looked, you know, he’s in that book they’ve got that pterodactyl
29:52
superimposed over a lateral skull and kind of kind of mockery mockery built into the book. And when I
30:00
went and looked at the X-rays, I’m like I looked at it and I’m like, you know, at this point in time, I’ve looked at hundreds of X-rays, something like that. Hundreds or thousands of them, I don’t
30:09
know. And I mean, it was it was a part of my daily practice. And I’m looking at this this lateral
30:14
X-ray. And I’m like, this is a lateral X-ray. Like it there was nothing crazy about it. You know,
30:20
they always taught you in school, you know, step away from it. Blur your vision a little bit. If
30:26
anything doesn’t look right, it probably isn’t right. You know, that was the radiologist teaching us this. And here I’m looking at this thing and I’m backing away. I’m squinting. I’m looking at
30:35
it. Nothing looked abnormal about that X-ray. And I don’t know how you’d fake that thing, you know,
30:41
with the f fracture patterns and all this kind of stuff. I would think anything faked in it would stand out like a sore thumb, but nothing did. It looked very very very genuine to me. Okay.
30:51
So then, and that brings me point because kind of where we’re leading into there. One of the things that we wanted to look at was that 6 and 12 millimeter fragment, right? That people think, oh,
31:02
they took, you know, a slice of the bullet and x-rayed it and stuck it on there. And that was
31:07
tada the case against Oswald. And the first thing that stood out to me looking at that actual X-ray
31:14
is that it’s not a nice neat semic-ircular slice. It it has some irregular margin to it that doesn’t
31:20
come through in the in the crappy reproduction that they that the HSCA put out there. And but
31:27
when as we got we looked in and started looking a little closer, I looked at Larry and I said, “Larry, there’s another fragment inside of that fragment.” And he looked and he’s like,
31:36
“Yep.” And and I said, “But look at the rest of the film.” I said, ‘You have these grid lines,
31:42
right? And for for the viewer, what grid lines are. So, normally you take a film cassette and you
31:50
put it in this tray, slide it into this big thing, and then you line your subject up and that’s
31:56
called a it’s called a film bucky. And inside of the cassette, there are what what are called these
32:01
rare earth screens. And when X-rays hit it, they glow. And so they can use these rare earth screens
32:08
to create um something that will help expose the X-ray utilizing less X-rays, right? And so it’s a
32:16
safety measure. We don’t have to use as much X-ray to create the image. And but if if you don’t have
32:22
a film bucky, because the purpose of the film bucky is that when you push the exposure button,
32:28
it’s supposed to vibrate really quick like this so you don’t create lines on the X-ray. Okay. Now, in
32:35
my practice at the time, we had a plain fil film X-ray machine and you could just turn the Bucky off. You could still put it put a picture in there because some things they don’t want you, you know,
32:44
X-raying extremities, for instance. Sometimes they didn’t want you to to have the film Bucky on and
32:50
create any subtle little change to the X-ray. So, sometimes we would turn it off. But anyway,
32:56
I was able to replicate, you know, a skull. I had a a plastic skull and um, you know, took an X-ray
33:03
of it with the film bucky off in order to create, you know, a baseline. Um, so anyway, we’re kind
33:09
of circling around in different directions here. Kennedy’s X-rays were not taken in a film bucky.
33:15
They they would lay the cassette right under his head or stick it right next to his head or whatever they wanted to look at and they would take the X-ray right there and always left these
33:25
grid lines. Okay. Well, I’m looking at this 6 and 12 millimeter fragment and inside of it there’s
33:30
another fragment in there. And so there’s there’s enough contrast between the two fragments that we
33:36
could still see the two fragments. And I thought, well, okay, if this was a fake, they’d have to put
33:43
the bigger fragment in there later and you would you would still see these grid lines, you know,
33:49
just shadows of these grid lines in there. And we didn’t see that. And I thought, okay, well,
33:55
this to me seems like this is a legit that’s it’s a legitimate fragment on a legitimate X-ray. And
34:00
so I remember coming back to my office and man, that that sat with me for a long time. And I I
34:07
sat and thought about it. And so I I decided to test it. And I I took a small metal fragment and
34:15
uh taped it onto this plastic uh skull that I had, took an X-ray with the grid lines. And
34:22
um the the fragment obscured the grid lines from showing up. So you had this white nice neat white
34:27
fragment with grid lines around it. So then I took um another fragment and I I’m I made just an X-ray
34:36
of the of of a of a frag larger fragment. So now I have a film that’s all black with just
34:42
this white round semic-ircular fragment. So then I I I had a piece of copy film. Now copy film
34:48
works differently. It’s it’s exposed by, you know, fluorescent lights or whatever. And so you would
34:54
take you go into the dark room and you would take you would put your copy film down and then you would um put your your skull film down with the grid lines on it and and you’d make a duplicate
35:08
um of or excuse me I think I did it the other way around. I think I put the the black film with the
35:13
big fragment in and I and I made an image of that or anyway however I did it. This was a
35:18
long time ago. I did one then the other um to do to to do what Mantic claimed was done. Okay. And
35:27
when I developed it, it was perfect. But you could see the grid lines. You couldn’t see it
35:33
around the small fragment, but you could see the grid lines within that larger fragment exactly like I predicted it would it would have to be. And that did not exist in that X-ray at the National
35:43
Archives. So I became absolutely convinced that that uh it was it was original that that 6 and
35:51
12 millimeter fragment uh existed and was real. And so so later down the road I ended up somehow
35:58
I ended up in in contact with Mantic. There was another researcher and because I can’t it was
36:03
John somebody and I can’t remember so I won’t name it but we were he was the intermediary going back
36:10
and forth and I brought this this fact up about these grid lines and how there weren’t any within
36:15
the boundaries of that larger fragment and he he came back Mantic came back and said oh I checked
36:22
my notes from the archives and it says that there were grid lines inside the fragment and I thought
36:28
okay now it’s now where he said, she said kind of a thing. Um, I have the chiropractic degree. He’s
36:35
got the fancy medical degree. I’m screwed, right? Cuz this is where I would love for them to release
36:41
those things because then I could show you what I was talking about with it. So, anyway, we dropped the argument at that point. It was kind of a no-win situation. But um I went back and I looked
36:51
at his OD measurements and you know he has this uh this line and it goes up like this and across
36:58
the 6 and 12 millimeter fragment like that and they’re taking it these at these extremely tiny
37:04
minute increments and and stuff. Well, if there were grid lines, his little graph would go like
37:10
this and these would be the grid lines. There’s no evidence of the grid lines in his own OD data,
37:17
right? So, so anyway, I’m pretty convinced that’s a that’s a legit X-ray. That’s a legit fragment,
37:23
you know. So, okay. And and so tell me what the the entrance to JFK’s neck, there’s some people
37:29
who would say it’s impossible for it to enter at the the base of the neck and exit the throat
37:34
without hitting the the vertebra. And and so it’s an impossible shot. Is that true? It’s not impos
37:42
it’s it’s not impossible. um you just don’t hit the vertebrae, you know, like ver here here’s
37:48
a these are lumbar spine vertebrae, you know, they’re only so big. They have spaces between and
37:53
the whole nine yards. I mean, they can be missed. People people get shot in that area um frequently
38:01
and and and the bone’s not hit, you know. So, I I most of the time that that argument gets made,
38:08
it’s because they’re thinking of the anatomy incorrectly. Okay? You know, we forget that when
38:14
you’re looking at the neck that the lower part of the neck is tilted like this, right? Well,
38:20
how can a bullet that hits at, you know, let’s say this is C7. How can a bullet at C7 drop 2 in
38:27
and still be at C7? Well, it’s because the plane is is on an angle like this, right? And so, when
38:36
you’re not think, you know, I I took eight months of of gross human anatomy. I dissected cadaavvers.
38:42
um all those kinds of things and and we just we tend to think of things in terms of plane angles
38:48
and things that the average person doesn’t but the statement is nonsense. Um you certainly can
38:55
there was no evidence that a bone was hit with him. I saw his his his lower cervical X-ray. So
39:01
if you go back to um to Dr. Latimer and you know he thought he saw little bone chips or something
39:09
like that in that X-ray there. There’s nothing there. Um I stared at that thing for like 10 minutes. I couldn’t find anything that looked like bone little bone chips or anything. I
39:20
think he saw just there might have been just some it’s very common. Most X-rays have some
39:25
kind of small little artifacts on it. Um just artifacts from film processing and stuff. There
39:31
might have been some little small little linear things like that, but there were you couldn’t
39:38
see any bone damage at all. Um, you go back to the pathology reports, you know, of course, you know,
39:45
if you’re if you’re a non-believer in those, then turn this off right now, I guess. But, um,
39:50
they couldn’t find any damage to bone, right? The the the lung apex was bruised, not penetrated. So,
39:59
a bullet had to traverse at a distance high enough to cause a bruise but not damage the
40:06
the the the lung apex. Um, if you look at the anatomy of the lung apex, it’s what is it? T1,
40:13
the lung apex is at the vertebral level of T1. So, the bullet had to come in above that because the
40:19
lung wasn’t hit. Right. Right. Pretty soon now you’re above the collar bone. Now you’re above the rib cage. You’re above everything. Now you just have to be far enough to the right not to
40:28
hit a transverse process or something. And that’s not that difficult. You know, honestly, you look
40:35
at the trajectories based on Dale Meyer stuff, it works out just fine, right? So, what do you think
40:40
of what and what do you make of the people who tell who tell us, well, look at what the Parkland doctor said and and and and they all we we have to take what they said seriously and and uh and
40:52
that’s proof of a shot from the front. Okay. Okay. Well, my thought my first thought on that is let’s scrap the FAA and anything they do on on invest on on plane crash investigations and just go with
41:04
what the people on the ground saw. Right. Right. We’d have more plane crashes. Yep. Yep. You know,
41:11
it’s people forget people that aren’t in health care, I don’t think, quite understand that
41:17
there’s an enormous difference between general practice doctor and an ER doctor and and a and
41:23
a cardiothoracic surgeon versus an orthopedist. Um, they don’t know all things, okay? And your
41:32
emergency per your emergency trauma people, they’re amazing people. um what they can process
41:38
in in minutely short periods of time to save lives is amazing, right? And they’re the firefighters.
41:46
You bring them in to put out the fire. Okay, great. But they don’t know how to put it back together again. That’s why they bring in the other surgeons, right? And so you’ve got a bunch
41:57
of firefighters in the medical field that are trying to put out a fire and what was it a minute
42:02
or two that went by before they noticed he was shot in the head? Um, and then he’s dead. Okay,
42:08
wrap it up. Get it out. Get to the next thing. And then let’s let the people that have hours and hours of time on their hands to uh methodically go through this and figure out what happened. And
42:18
so you you always have to lean towards your your your pathologists who are spending the hours with
42:23
the body trying to trying to figure things out, not the people that spent minutes trying to save a life that that was unfortunately extinguished. Um, they weren’t with the body very long. Yeah. I
42:34
know they’re 15 20 minutes and they were a very crowded room. Uh they were frantic trying to do
42:40
all sorts of stuff. They’re not they’re not, you know, they’re not probing the wounds and checking
42:45
angles and, you know, they had no idea what the extent of the damage to the skull was or where
42:50
bullets. That wasn’t their job. Um that’s somebody else’s job. So yeah. No, I’m I’m struck by there
42:57
was uh the ARB interviewed a forensic radiologist and Douglas Horn who was part of the the process
43:04
asked that radiologist what do you think of the Parkland doctors? He said I I couldn’t care less.
43:09
I have no you know throw it out. I I don’t don’t even bring it up you know and and and I thought
43:15
yeah you know it’s I just don’t get why people are so fixated on the Parkland doctors. Well,
43:20
I think you know the answer to be honest with you, the answer is that I I view the the followers of
43:28
the Kennedy assassination kind of like I I I view people with with political attitudes. Um,
43:34
you have 40% that always vote this way and 40% that always vote this way and you have 20% in the middle trying to figure things out. And that’s kind of the way it is in this in this group, too.
43:44
the vast majority of the people in the community already have their mind made up and so they they
43:49
naturally subconsciously seek out things that that support their opinion and then when they when
43:55
they’re countered with something that disputes their opinion um you know then they they’ll go to
44:01
extreme lengths to try to preserve their opinion by invoking you know Parkland ER doctors over the
44:08
the autopsy pathologists um and and they feel perfectly justified in doing it But logically,
44:14
it doesn’t make any sense. Yeah. And it’s the same reason why I don’t uh I don’t really spend that much time uh debating on Facebook or elsewhere with hardcore conspiracy believers because I’ll
44:25
never change their mind. But I want to post my articles so the people in the middle perhaps can
44:31
read what I’ve written and maybe, you know, maybe they’ll be influenced. Yeah. Well, that’s all
44:36
you can do. You can, you know, lead the horse to water and hope they take a drink, but that’s all you can do. Okay. Well, here’s a question for you from, you know, the the the hole in in Kennedy’s
44:45
jacket and and and uh shirt, isn’t that isn’t that evidence of a very low bullet wound to the back?
44:54
Oh god. Uh no, it’s it’s not because bodies and clothing move, right? Um and so unless you have
45:03
a clothing and a body in the same exact position, it’s it’s worthless uh information, you know. I I
45:09
can’t tell you the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of hours that I put in on that issue.
45:17
It was stupidly insane. But I was 20some and I had a lot of energy, I guess. But, you know,
45:23
I went through dozens and dozens and dozens of X-rays. We, you know, was Cliff Varnell was the
45:29
guy that that was proddding me in all this stuff. And you know, he was the he was the guy this guy
45:34
music buff in San Francisco who thought there’s no way uh a tailored outfit would ever bunch up,
45:40
you know, uh which I thought was a pretty poor argument, but you know, I put the work in. I went through dozens of X-rays and we looked at things like, you know, what level is the chin at relative
45:50
to the spine in a neutral in a relatively neutral position and um the 14 cm acchromian measurements
45:56
and mastoid measurements and reproduce it on X-rays and just over and over and over
46:01
again. The reality is is that the second you you take a a a thin folded shirt and you put it on,
46:09
the the linear relationships from this button to this button change, right? The dimensions change
46:16
and then so it changes just from putting it on. It changes from, you know, moving your arm up.
46:21
It changes if you lean back and the clothing gets pushed up a little bit. You know, you can watch on
46:27
almost any news show where they’re interviewing people, somebody’s sitting in a chair wearing a suit and it’s got a big bunched up spot in it, you know, and so what did I do? I I I got a shirt. I
46:38
measured the same distance. I, you know, glued on a piece of metal to it. Um, put it in front of an
46:43
X-ray. If my arms down, where’s it at? What if I do this? And, you know, we did all these different things. And sure enough, when it’s bun, it it had to be bunched up to be in that position, right?
46:58
Can a can a shirt and a jacket bunch up at the same time? Yeah, clearly it did. You know, um it
47:05
it can or it can’t. Those are the two options. But right, they do bunch, you know, it’s a 50% thing
47:11
and maybe it, you know, so I don’t know. It’s it’s again it’s gra kind of grasping at straws to try
47:17
to make a preconceived conclusion work I think but um you know the data was the data in terms of when
47:24
I went through the whole thing. So and and what what is your thoughts on the single bullet theory
47:33
you’re now I’m remember so in 2004 was right around the same time that I went to the archives
47:38
um earlier that year I came to work on a Saturday I checked my email I had an email and I my my
47:47
website was out at that time anyway I had an email from somebody that had come across my website and it said you know hey came across your website good job nice to see somebody you know,
47:56
drawn a fine tooth comb through things a little bit. Keep up the good work.” And I thought, “Oh, well, that’s nice.” And I looked at the signature and and uh the person that signed it,
48:05
it said it said Hugh Ainsworth. And I thought, “Hu gosh, that name sounds really familiar
48:10
to me.” And so I goo maybe he’s part of the community or something. Hugh Ainsworth JFK. Oh, Hugh Ainssworth. Yeah, a morning Dallas Morning News reporter who is the only person
48:20
in history who was there when Kennedy was shot, was there when Oswald was arrested, and was there when Oswald was was shot by Ruby. Like, wow. And so, I thought it was a joke, right? And I thought,
48:31
so I wrote him back and I said, “Oh, I’ve you’re somebody I’ve always wanted to talk to. Um, is there a ch time that we could talk at some point?” So, I get a number and sure enough, it’s a Dallas
48:40
number. And so I called it and then probably had a 10 or 15 minute conversation with you and we talked about Judith Very Baker because her book had just came out and and things. And so anyway,
48:51
um right around that that same time is when um the Discovery Channel had had reached out,
48:58
Robert Ericson from the Discovery Channel and they had come across the article that I’d done on on the entrance wound location for the first shot at at the base of the neck and they said, “We’ve
49:08
looked everywhere. this is the only thing that seems to have, you know, tackled that subject.
49:13
And so we we’re going to do a show on the magic bullet and we would like to include that. And so,
49:19
uh, they hired a film crew out of Omaha. Uh, Robert flew in and then I had one of one of our
49:25
clients at the office who was about the same size as Bill as Kennedy. We spent about 12 hours in the office one day. Anyway, he asked me, this is a long answer to a simple question. Um he asked me
49:35
the same question and I and I said it’s the single bullet fact. You know it’s what do I think about
49:43
it? It’s a fact. Nothing else makes any sense. It’s not you know I don’t know what else to call
49:48
it. Um so that’s my thought on it. Yeah. No, I I I agree. Um so uh what you know what other ballist
49:59
did you do any other ballistic tests? I mean you you have a you have a man car and a rifle. Did you
50:04
uh Yeah. So I did the first thing on my list was right. It was only one person in the history of
50:12
the whole world has ever fired this thing three times in under six seconds and he was some sort
50:17
of you know FBI super marksman right was is the narrative that’s out there. And I thought okay
50:24
well let’s start there. Um and I I you know I shot guns. I grew up I hunted. I mostly shotguns and
50:30
pheasant hunting and stuff, but so I bought one um took it out one day and I I put up a paper target
50:37
on a box at 85 yards. Okay. And I I didn’t have a window or boxes to lean on to shoot through.
50:44
So I just got down on one knee, so arguably a more unstable position. And I thought, well,
50:50
I’m just going to try to shoot three times. Now, at this point in time, the gun I had just had the gun for maybe a month or something, and I hadn’t sighted in the scope on it. So, I thought, well,
50:58
I’ll just use the iron sights. And so, I put three shells in it, got down on a knee, and fired three times. And if I remember right, I hit the target three times. And then I videotaped it, and it was
51:08
like 5.8 seconds. And I’m like, well, this wasn’t that difficult, you know? I think it’s merely for
51:14
a lack of trying that it’s so hard, you know? So, um, so it kind of started there and then,
51:22
um, you know, there’s a lot of debate on what do the bullets do, right? What are they, well,
51:27
they’re designed to hold together, so why did the one that hit Kenny in the head break up into a million pieces and the one that went through his neck, you know, stayed intact? And so,
51:35
I think that’s that was kind of the fog that I was trying to work through, if you will. And so,
51:42
I I don’t know, I just I’d get an idea, I’d go do it. I’d take my lunch break and go and fire some bullets. I I um I wanted to see I wanted there was something about the you know the head wound
51:54
that intrigued me and I I at this point I don’t remember what but I ordered some synthetic bone
52:01
spheres and the these were like from Europe somewhere like a hundred bucks a piece or something and so I get these and I had this big five gallon bucket of of ballistic gelatin and I
52:11
had the FBI’s recipe and all that stuff and so I filled these things up with gelatin and and I went
52:17
out and put a a cardboard box uh with a bunch of polyester uh stuffing in it and stuck it behind it
52:26
and you know went and I shot and then videotaped it and it didn’t explode and I oh my goodness I
52:32
can’t that I can’t ever let that one go public you know right um the reality was is that the
52:38
thickness of those spheres it’s like 7 millimeters or something and where Kennedy got hit in the
52:43
back of the head it’s thicker than that it’s probably more dense than that it’s a polyurethane um stuff that I was shooting at. So So I thought, “Okay, I’ll try it again.” I went to uh the the
52:55
hardware store somewhere and I picked up some little square quarterinch tiles, you know, and I duct taped one to the front of it and then took a shot at it and that thing absolutely exploded
53:06
um into a million pieces and um but all I was a So then I took it and I and I x-rayed it and
53:14
so I could see the fragment pattern if there was a pattern. There wasn’t. It was kind of all over the place. Um, and then I dissolved the the gelatin and took out all the the metal particles and dug
53:26
through the box and you know and I put ordered them all biggest to smallest on an X-ray plate and x-rayed it. And some of these things I think became images on my website or something. But I,
53:36
you know, it was just it was just, you know, the the nerdy professor kind of guy coming up with
53:41
ideas and and testing them. But, you know, I learned an awful lot about that gun and and about the bullets and what they do and what they don’t do. And it just it helped improve my
53:52
um you know my my my my working thesis on on what I thought happened I guess. Yeah, there was a lot
53:59
of lot of bullets spent doing a lot of things. So So can a fully jacketed uh am round of ammunition
54:06
uh produce fragments when hitting a skull? Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean I mean some people say
54:13
it’s impossible. Yeah, it’s not. I mo most of the time when I get challenged on that, I I invite the
54:20
person up here and and tell them that I, you know, I’ll I’ll just place it on the side here. You’ll
54:28
be fine. But if you want to be the target and back it up, we can do that. you know, where the guns,
54:35
you know, the I think I think it’s probably a half dozen times I’ I’ve done something like that
54:41
where I’ve invited somebody, somebody had a claim about the gun, right? And and I’ll say, you know,
54:47
I’ve got one. I’ve got I’ve got ammunition, you know, you you get that plane ticket, you can stay at my house and we’ll go and test your ideas. Nobody’s ever took me up on it. No,
54:56
unfortunately not. That’s too bad. Okay. So, look, you know, is there is there anything else I didn’t
55:03
cover on on the autopsy materials that you want to you want to bring up? Um, gosh, let me kind of
55:12
touch on some of it. Like, I know there might be some people out there that that that talk about uh
55:18
it’s about a centimeter below the cowic entrance where the where there’s a fracture there and they
55:24
talk about there being um like a bullet fragment right there. Okay. And um it’s not B. It wasn’t
55:31
metal. Um it was actually a little piece of bone that had broke off when when the skull fractured.
55:39
Um, and I was read looking at this earlier today that what was really strange about that is that
55:45
the the same, you know, pathologists were looking at those in the 1970s and didn’t know what it was,
55:52
you know, which goes back to my whole point is I I just don’t think the education was the same back
55:57
then. Um, now we could talk that is there still inklings going on about the orientation of that
56:05
F8 photograph? Well, I’m sure that I I never understood that to be honest. It’s beyond my understanding as a mere mortal, but uh yes, I’m sure that they’re still going on about it how it
56:14
proves uh you front. We So, when we finally got to that photograph and we were at the, you know,
56:22
that the whole the big question, right, it was uh you know, am I going to win my own mental jackpot
56:28
here uh and and have, you know, figured this out by looking at this black and white or not?
56:33
And and so anyway, we got to that photograph and we looked at it and there was probably a 5-second
56:39
pause and I was I looked at Larry and I’m like, “Holy crap.” And he’s like, “What?” I said I said, “There’s his cheek.” And he goes, “What?” And I said, “Right there. That’s his cheek.” Okay.
56:48
And so when you’re looking at that photograph the correct way, President Kennedy’s cheek is here and
56:54
he has that kind of nice orangish little tan, you know, and you could see it right there. You could see fuzz from the sideburn and the and some of the ear. And um and then you could see his upper
57:05
trap muscle right here. And then one of the in one frame the camera had kind of moved like this
57:11
and you had an expanded view of this area and you could you could actually see atapost tissue from
57:17
when they had likely done the dissection through his neck trying to find where the where the bullet
57:22
went, you know. And I I thought, “Oh my good, you know, the the thought you mentioned about, you know, why don’t they release these things?” And, you know, certain things like that would finally
57:31
go away if they would release one of the color images of it. It was clearly a picture taken from
57:36
the front. Um, I came I came back from there and I was so upset by it because it was so obvious. And
57:46
at so later in life I I worked for a company that was a franchise and they would have their annual
57:53
conventions every year in Dallas. And one time I went down there u I would take small groups down
57:59
there um and give them a little tour or whatever. And anyway, I was down there one day and and
58:05
Robert Groden was down there on a Saturday selling his wares, you know, and oh, I I had it took every
58:13
ounce of my my willpower not to confront him on that because and I should I I regret it because
58:20
I I left there and I said, you know, next year when I go down to this, I’m gonna do it this time,
58:26
right? Uh, I ended up leaving the company and they they moved the annual event anyway to Memphis or
58:33
somewhere or Nashville and I never got it done. But there’s no way anybody can look at the color
58:40
version of that photograph and come away with the belief that it’s of the back of the head. Not one way. Anybody, Mantic, um, uh, Groden, any of these guys, Gary Agalar, they’re lying. They’re
58:55
absolutely lying. Is there just one photograph or is there more or more than one photo? No, there’s more than there’s I don’t know. There were three maybe three of them or four of them. I can’t
59:03
remember. There were two at least. I know that for sure, right? Because they were numbers 44 and 45, I think. But, you know, my my challenge has been for years that if that if you’ve seen
59:13
that photograph and you’re convinced that it’s of the back of the head, I will meet you at the
59:18
archives with the camera crew, okay? we’ll go into this thing together and discuss, you know,
59:24
because I I it I cannot understand how anybody who’s seen the color version of that believes that
59:31
that’s on the back of the head without just pure deceit. Right. Right. Okay. Well, that’s I mean,
59:40
if I if I can say it stronger, I would. I don’t know how, but Oh, yeah. Can say it stronger. So,
59:48
I mean, I think I think covering covering that is good. So on yeah and that’s why I do wish
59:54
this stuff would come out because I think that it’s some some more expert analysis of people who
1:00:01
really perhaps can’t go to the archives or can’t uh can’t get there to actually them. I I mean I
1:00:07
think the personally I think um the thing that used to drive me in that argument was that you
1:00:14
had you know depending on the polls 60 to 80% of Americans uh believing that there was a conspiracy
1:00:21
and that that conspiracy somehow involved their own government right and and so when you have such
1:00:27
a impressionable uh group of people of such size things that aren’t true that lead to things like
1:00:38
that can cause people to do awful things in name of government hatred, right? And releasing things
1:00:46
out there to satisfy um some of that I think would would eliminate some of that. But yeah, that I
1:00:53
mean I remember that being the motivator for me, but you know, I can understand where the Kennedy family comes from too. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. For sure. I mean, I think that people were pretty
1:01:02
upset when the RFK’s autopsy photographs were released um in that last round of documents from
1:01:09
the Trump administration and and uh the Kennedy family, I mean, I think RFK Jr. said, “Okay.” But
1:01:15
I think the other parts of the members of the family uh were appalled that that came out. I
1:01:20
can understand. I mean, it’s it’s a it’s for me to sit here um as somebody, you know, I was minus 11
1:01:28
years old when Kennedy was killed, right? I wasn’t even born yet. You know, for me to sit and try to stomp my feet and justify something to be released um speaks of a certain um you know, personal
1:01:40
arrogance that my need to know is greater than a family’s need to remain private, you know, but
1:01:51
two sides of the coin, you know. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Well, thank you very much
1:01:56
uh for being on on the trail of delusion and um well I’m when I post I’m going to you know
1:02:03
when this posts I’m sure this will get a lot of comments and people will be uh probably quite upset and I’ll probably get some private emails from probably a few people you know. Yeah. Well,
1:02:14
but um the only way you get through uh the truth to anything is to actually discuss
1:02:19
it with somebody. So hopefully there’s fruitful discussions in there somewhere. Yep. Heat. Heat.